To feel this way, as a woman?

The man who says, "I'm a woman. Gimme" has entirely lost my respect.

I disagree slightly - I prefer a world in which respect is the default, but something that can be lost.

I can't respect the idea that the 51% of the population who are effectively imprisoned in their homes in Afghanistan - & who, in the UK, were only liberated from marital rape in the '90s & are just heading towards the centenary of being allowed to vote - should no longer be permitted a word or political recognition of their own.

I also can't respect those who promote this view unthinkingly and often aggressively without showing any capacity for rational and respectful engagement with contrasting perspectives. Unlike many who may call me bigoted, I can often respect those who try to do this in good faith, even if I'm not convinced by them.

(In this context, it's sometimes interesting to look up the word "bigot" and reflect on how its definition applies in this context!)

I agree that trans-identified men deserve the same rights as others, but I don't see why they should deserve respect. Respect is earned. If a man's actions cause harm, why should I respect him for the choices he has made?

Miranda Yardley, who calls himself a transexual, is a trans-identified man who has earned my respect because he recognises that he is not a woman and that he has no right to colonise women's spaces. He stands up to the TRA bullies on these matters.

Totally agree.
You could be me.

Bored so I'll bite.

Specifically regarding the pronouns:
When you address me, you use the second person singular, i.e. you call me "you".
When you talk about me in my presence, you use my name, i.e. you say to the other person in front of me "Euclidian told me about it earlier".
Not "she told me about it earlier" - that is considered rude and will prompt me to say "who is 'she', the cat's mother?"
Note, an email into which I am copied counts as 'in my presence'.

When you talk about me and I am not there, use any pronouns you like as I won't know about it.

Therefore, a transwoman saying "my pronouns are she/her" is not only trying to compel other people's speech, he is trying to control what other people say in his absence.

Thank you for your contribution.

Though many may not realise it, gender ideology is a vast human rights and safeguarding issue that has already caused catastrophic harm and if massive change doesn’t come quickly, will end up costing the taxpayer many millions in compensation ranging from medical harm, negligence and other liability claims. For a starting point the average payout for infertility with sexual dysfunction £140,210 to £207,260.

Compensation for phalloplasty harm claims are likely to be at the higher end of all compensation due to permanent disfigurement/disability and ongoing pain.

The medical scandal is at least on a par with lobotomies or smoking - we have a network of ‘gender clinics’ staffed by activists whose aim is to promote medical ‘transition’ to vulnerable people, there are rogue GPs continuing to do all they can to provide medical harm to vulnerable kids and an entire hospital set up to carry out phalloplasties on vulnerable girls with a variety of untreated mental health conditions.

This procedure has an approx 90% complication rate and has been touted by American hospitals as a great profit earner due to the fact it creates such a high number of serious health issues and revisions. There has already been a death of high profile trans identified female due to complications.

Until very recently criticism of this ideology was heavily censored and oppressed and still is by ‘trusted’ institutions like the BBC who repeatedly lie and obfuscate the truth. They can no longer be trusted to report with any degree of accuracy and they avoid it whenever possible. They also are refusing to comply with the law in providing adequate facilities for their female staff.

That means that society is reliant on women in networks like Mumsnet to spread the word. Mumsnet has had repeated attacks intended to take down its website and advertisers have been targeted to reduce Mumsnet revenue in retaliation for allowing women even a very restricted voice to speak about the issues.

Anyone determined not to take an interest in this incredibly important issue is free to scroll past.

It's hard to be zen about zey/zem, it's true...

Zey/Zem sounds ridiculous....

Best get on, Jc - with another 2,999,999,999 threads to condemn for discussing this, you've got a big job on your hands! 😉

More seriously, each thread has its own different slant - and each poster who cares enough to start a thread expressing their personal views on this, in an appropriate way, deserves to be heard.

Could you not have contributed to one of the other 3 billion threads on exactly the same topic?

I agree, and find your perspective reassuring. It's fascinating how rapidly the consensus emerged that

Trans women are women = correct and respectful
Trans women are not women = bigotted

In an alternative universe that valued women's "lived experience" (ridiculous tautology aside!) more than trans-identified men's, it would be the other way around:

Trans women are women = bigotted (denies women a distinct reality and word)
Trans women are trans women = correct & respectful (and more precise!)

Neither 1) nor 2) above is inherently "right" or ethical. Both are simply value judgements, which reflect who, and what, our society prioritises as most valid / worthy of recognition: the "lived experience" of the transwoman, or that of the "biological" (grr! I so resent having to add that) woman.

And what's especially revealing of society's values is that, of these two options, the first demands that women give up any word of their own and their total recognition as a political and legal class... While the second permits both women and transwomen to retain descriptors and recognition.

The reality that, despite this, the first, requiring women's absolute capitulation and negation, is favoured (and the extent to which it's favoured, with opposition to it often abusive and even violent) is very, very revealing.

I'd say also that the fact that some women themselves favour the first reinforces this further.

The very worst kind of oppression is the kind that is so deeply embedded that it can't be seen, even by those suffering it. The kind that can't even be named, because the oppressed group is denied the very language necessary to do so, by a value system that actively condemns them for asking for this.

I fully agree.

Trans women are by their very nature appropriating womanhood.

The woke of society celebrate it, but they would and have scorned those appropriating blackness.

It is just another form of misogyny.

And it needs to keep being shouted from the rooftops.

Men who identify as women are not women, they’re a subset of men called ‘trans women’. They deserve respect and the same human rights as anyone else. But they are not women and should not have access to women’s rights and spaces, awards, sports, prisons, shelters, changing rooms, swimming pools, clubs, associations.

This topic has been done to death on MN pretty much every day same thread different posters.

You are not being unreasonable. No one can change sex and men cannot become women.

There are a range of reasons why some men decide to call themselves women, some of them are unsavoury or downright evil (eg. Andrew George or Adam Graham) but none of them mean they are actually women.

The ‘developed’ world has had a period of madness from which we seem to be emerging. Soon it will no longer be necessary to point out that women don’t have penises and ‘identity’ doesn’t trump sex in any situation (especially to benefit men) but for now we must keep repeating the obvious truths.

Some women can’t see these obvious truths and are determined to undermine everything we have gained in the last 100 years but our daughters will thank us in the long run for not giving away their rights.