Trans toilets

Have you read the judgment?

Where in UK law does it say that?

Where in UK law does it say that?

Not true. It's appropriate by dint of being a single-sex space. I wish people would stop misrepresenting it.

Interesting, I've read the judgement but missed this part, where does it say that?

There's a big gap between what the SC judgement actually says and what many, including the EHRC, want it to say.

The SC judgement says that services may discriminate by birth sex without breaking EA2010 if, and only if, the discrimination is justified and proportionate. It gives no clue what that means but everyone and her dog will have a different definition. It's a mess and the EHRC 'guidance' is making it worse.

Yes, but they shouldn't be. It was made quite clear if toilets are labelled as being for women, then only biological women can use them.

She's not going to change her toilets. I appreciate your friend for not wanting to rock the boat, but this just isn't a principle that she's willing to betray. She just isn't prepared to discriminate, and at the moment noone can force her to. Someone has answered the question anyway - it's not going to be enforced apparently so that's grand.
She has put some progress pride flags above the stick figures anyway so hopefully that will enough to scare off anyone who would 'challenge it'. I highly doubt anyone on here would last two minutes in the pub as there are trans and non binary employees who have their identities respected.

I must get on with the gardening so blocking this thread now.

And the full guidance should have been ready at the time of the decision rather than leaving businesses in a strange limbo of not knowing who’s responsibility it is to enforce it and what exemptions there may be. The questions the OP asked about timescales etc have not been answered yet so whereas for some places it was easy to make a change (eg define a toilet as unisex) some others need more information.

I’m not a small business owner but if I was I’d be waiting for the full information before making a judgement call on what I’m telling my employees they do / do not need to enforce.

She's not going to change her toilets. I appreciate your friend for not wanting to rock the boat, but this just isn't a principle that she's willing to betray. She just isn't prepared to discriminate, and at the moment noone can force her to. Someone has answered the question anyway - it's not going to be enforced apparently so that's grand.
She has put some progress pride flags above the stick figures anyway so hopefully that will enough to scare off anyone who would 'challenge it'. I highly doubt anyone on here would last two minutes in the pub as there are trans and non binary employees who have their identities respected.

I must get on with the gardening so blocking this thread now.

But clearly she is prepared to discriminate, quite blatantly.

She's not going to change her toilets. I appreciate your friend for not wanting to rock the boat, but this just isn't a principle that she's willing to betray. She just isn't prepared to discriminate, and at the moment noone can force her to. Someone has answered the question anyway - it's not going to be enforced apparently so that's grand.
She has put some progress pride flags above the stick figures anyway so hopefully that will enough to scare off anyone who would 'challenge it'. I highly doubt anyone on here would last two minutes in the pub as there are trans and non binary employees who have their identities respected.

I must get on with the gardening so blocking this thread now.

She's not going to change her toilets. I appreciate your friend for not wanting to rock the boat, but this just isn't a principle that she's willing to betray. She just isn't prepared to discriminate, and at the moment noone can force her to. Someone has answered the question anyway - it's not going to be enforced apparently so that's grand.
She has put some progress pride flags above the stick figures anyway so hopefully that will enough to scare off anyone who would 'challenge it'. I highly doubt anyone on here would last two minutes in the pub as there are trans and non binary employees who have their identities respected.

I must get on with the gardening so blocking this thread now.

Yeah, she needs to change her stick figures.

I have a friend in slightly similar circumstances - she runs a weekly club night in a function room above a pub. It attracts an 'alternative' crowd, including several trans regulars, but also for as long as anyone can remember, women have been using the Gents to avoid queueing, & men have been using the mirrors in the Ladies to check their make up. She doesn't want to change this, & nor would her clientele.

She & the pub landlord (who doesn't much care who wees where but wants to be legally compliant) have looked into it, taken advice, & she is now using temporary signage on the loos for her club night, which covers the stick figures & makes it clear both are unisex. The signs are temporary cover ups because other people also book the room, & so it defaults to male/female unless whoever books it wants unisex.

Your mate also needs to supply single sex facilities for her bar staff (can be an enclosed unisex staff toilet, so long as it's single occupancy). My friend is covered here as the staff can use the single sex toilets in the main bar, if they don't want to use the unisex facilities in the club room (as can any punters who want a single sex toilet - they just get their hand stamped to leave the club room & come back).

It's really not as simple as just 'yah boo sucks let's ignore the law'. Your friend could easily have her arrangements challenged by a disgruntled customer or member of staff.

Tbh, if business owners cannot read and understand a clear piece of legislation they probably shouldn't be running a business. What about health and safety rules? Tax returns? Regulations around minimum wage for example? Is it ok to just ignore those as well?

But it isn’t being enforced, there isn’t going to be a 16 year old Saturday girl stood at the changing rooms of Marks and Spencer (again for example) telling trans people they can’t just go around doing what they want and it would be unfair to expect that. My boss didn’t know about the ruling but in conversation with me he has the opinion that it’s a good thing. Others I work with, also management disagree with it, that’s why it needs to be enforced or it really is pointless, how it’s enforced though I don’t know, that’s why I was asking.

There are little stick figures on the doors, as is usual in a pub, (actually it's been a long time since I've seen the words 'male' and 'female' on a pub door - have I ever?) and she's not going to ban anyone from the toilet. It's really as simple as that. There's really not anything that anyone can do about it. Especially given like I said, patrons of her pub would not want her to ban anyone. The only outcome I've seen is natal women being harassed in toilets for not looking womanly enough. (Including me - I'm muscular, tall and bald so have got dirty looks!) A woman was fired in America for looking trans after being confronted by a man about using the bathroom

Can I ask again how anyone intends to actually enforce this? What does it look like practically? Security guards? Chromosome testing at the door? Noone seems to be able to answer that question.

Anyway I'm off to garden. Noone will be able to change her mind, and this ridiculous rhetoric is totally unenforcable. Feel free to stay away from the scary pub where trans people pee in peace and nobody gives a shit.

It isn't just about toilets, although it suits certain people to make it so. It is about rape crisis centres, domestic violence refuges, prisons, hospital wards, medical procedures, intimate care, vulnerable children and adults. Deflecting the subject to toilets takes the attention off things like a man being in charge of a rape refuge in Edinburgh, convicted male prisoners being placed in women's prisons, dangerous men getting into women's refuges, disabled women being forced to accept intimate care from men. What has been allowed to happen to vulnerable women and children over the last 10 years has been a disgrace.

If the responses I’ve had so far are anything to go by it’s not black and white. As another example I won’t use the changing room in my local Primark because it’s unisex and they don’t even provide doors, just curtains. I thought the ruling meant Primark would now legally have to provide a space to change just for women.
I was asking because I thought someone (business owner with male/female facilities) could let me know when the change would happen and who is enforcing it. I thought maybe places like my local primark would get audited and be told they have until … to change their fitting room areas, apparently not though, so if nobody is policing it the new ruling is completely pointless.