I hate anti-vaxxers

One of my DDs has a friend who has a medical condition which prevents them having any vaccinations. They are totally dependent on others having vaccinations to protect them from disease. I know the parents and know that they are very pro-vaccine.

Agreed

a collaborative approach could still yield results. Iron fist policies would have an effect but would probably reinforce the social fracture

Sounds about right!

I think because eventually all the dead people wouldn’t be passing on the disease to the other dead people.

The only way to get herd immunity without vaccination is to let a disease spread through a population
Of course, some people will get ill and some will die. Those who haven't died should have immunity to the disease. But they could have very serious side effects from the disease.

And then a new generation get born - and immunity to a disease is not passed on.

So the new generation have to be exposed to the disease (if it's still prevalent in the population).

The disease might eventually die out as more people develop herd immunity but it's one heck of an approach to get it.

The alternative is to give a vaccination.

Which is the preferred option for people?

I don’t think you understand herd immunity.

Measles is known to have been causing human disease for at least 1,000 years and herd immunity had not developed by the time the vaccines were introduced. How are you expecting that to change?

And even supposing it was possible to achieve herd immunity in this way, why would you want to effectively vaccinate everyone with the live wild virus rather than the safe attenuated vaccine?

Disagree. The Covid vax is the same. Pretending it isn’t is pandering to conspiracy theories.

It was effective at preventing transmission of the strain it was originally created to protect against. But then it became less effective at prevention as the virus mutated (wholly predictable) so then they couldn’t say it was effective against transmission but just that it was effective at reducing symptom severity.

You weren’t gaslighted. People keep trotting this out but I remember exactly how this happened. They said it was effective against transmission when it first came out, because it was to begin with.

Can I just ask what you mean here? Are you saying there won’t be any vaccinations available for people to buy privately in the Autumn?

Yes they absolutely did. The gaslighting around this is something else. The Pfizer ceo tweeted out that it was "100% succesful" in preventing covid, Joe biden said “You’re not going to get Covid if you have these vaccinations.” the head of the CDC at the time said that vaccinated people "don't carry the virus, don't get sick". There are many more examples of similar statements. The way any side effects were downplayed and people were shamed and painted as a crazed conspiracy theorists for talking about their experiences was also ridiculous.

Either way, forcing something on the population that carries the risk of death or severe injury is not ok and is responsible for much of the current resurgence of mistrust in all vaccines.

As I said, I don't have an issue with other vaccines and my child is fully up to date on everything. I just didn't want a covid jab due to the novel and untested nature of mrna technology and the blood clot risk of the j&j one. I generally avoid taking unnecessary medication, even paracetamol, and every instinct in my body told me not to take them. I would have taken a traditional vaccine like novavax if it was available during the time it was a requirement but it wasn't. I dont know why this winds people up so much. I caught covid once years ago, it was fine for me and I didn't kill anyone because I caught it from my child and had been at home before and for the duration of my illness.

Had to think about this for a while - you mean people whose body doesn’t respond to the vaccine. Yes, that makes sense, thank you.

Don’t be silly. I don’t actually agree with compulsory vaccination in order to attend schools because I think it punishes the child (anti vaxxers are really not the people who should be home schooling their children), but people can definitely be called thick and/or ill informed for their decisions.

I know someone whose son was too young to have been vaccinated and is now deaf from measles. It’s absolutely his concern that other people are fucking thick.

They piss me off too,but ultimately,it's their body,their choice. Not much I can do about it.

I found it so, this was around 20 years ago and probably shaped my views more strongly on this matter.

The gentleman indexing was born in 1913 (he was an ex MP and I just checked, my memory isn't that good) he told me his mother was immune to the pox so she would be called on to nurse those suffering. He certainly understood the gravity of it and enough to show me, or possibly share the heartbreak

The burial index would have been from pre 1870s

Could you provide the literature review for the research you’ve done to help us out?
I don’t think you have one. I don’t think you know what research is.

This reminds me of the beginning of Great Expectations. Pips graves seen through the fog and all children’s graves. Those graves exist at the parish church in Cooling Kent. All from the same family and all tiny children dying from diseases preventable today. I’m attaching an image.

are people who are opposed to vaccines also against anti-biotics, after chemical processes make all the latter and they can have serious side effects. I am severely allergic to penicillin; it caused my face to swell and affected my breathing, I also cannot tolerate erythromycin and have been really unwell when taking it. However, I don't go around proposing that people do not take anti-biotics simply because I have been hosptalised as a result of side effects.

,

That is absolutely heartbreaking

Same OP. Same

ExquisiteSocialSkills · Today 14:31
Most anti vaxers aren’t actually anti vax per se. They’re quite happy for everyone else’s kids to be vaccinated because that keeps their kids safe.

Thats the part they are wrong about - as children under the age of 2 may well not have been old enough to be vaccinated - and some children are unable to have the vaccination, so they run the risk of having a their child mix with someone who passes it on to them and they have a bad reaction and go deaf or end up in a wheelchair, or worse die.

I agree

when researching some parish registers there were 3 particular deaths entered and normally the vicar didn't put what the deaths were caused by but in this case he wrote in the margin next to each child - pox

the family buried their first child on Monday - their second child on Wednesday and their 3rd child on friday, one of the volunteers who was indexing the register showed m, its something that stayed with me. The horror of boring three children in one week and how fortunate we are now to have vaccines to prevent this happening. I do remember in 1977 my mum cheering at the news when pox was irradiated

Part of the problem is that how it was without vaccines is passing out of living memory. My mum ( 78) had a childhood friend who died of measles and I had a friend whose mum had a built up shoe due to Polio. Dh had an uncle who was severely disabled by Polio. My parents are very pro vaccine and this got passed onto me.

Yes, you can now from pharmacies. They are about £100 though.

I was assuming I’d be able to get one through work but apparently they aren’t even giving it to HCPs this year. This will end well when we have the entire department off.

The modern pattern is for people to say they're "not antivax", invariably followed by the caveat that their children have had "some" vaccines, but to demand a list of a la carte solutions: certain vaccines without other vaccines or particular combinations or personalised dosing schedules (which the NHS can't provide). Or to say they've "done their own research" and list lots of spurious reasons why certain vaccines are better than others. Invariably followed by a story about a distant relative who was hospitalised after a vaccine, conveniently ignoring the fact that correlation doesn't equal causation.

Bottom line is that these are all people who think they know better than the people who have spent decades researching this. They don't.

They then go on to say vaccine advocates are arrogant or don't respect bodily autonomy in an attempt to spin this as being society's problem. But the bottom line is if you refuse vaccines for yourself or your children for highly transmissible and dangerous diseases you are deliberately choosing to put other people at risk. There's no debate here.

You're entitled to your opinions and I'm entitled to mine without having to resort to it being 'bollocks'!

And I'm not talking about flu or covid, I'm talking about long standing vaccines of diseases that were either eradicated in the UK or nearly unheard of.
If you've seen the suffering that measles and polio caused many millions of children previously, then I'm sorry, but why would you risk it?