to believe Rachel Reeves was crying because

@quantumbutterfly yes! The neighbours quietly educating her in the etiquette of flying which flags which could be flown. The community Christmas party.
Yes, everyone should read animal farm (DOH! not 1984! But everyone should read that great work too!)

I was pretty young when I first read animal farm and admit to having a bit of a moment when Boxer was sent away by the pigs. It's a very effective allegory.

It was an interesting book, remember the bit about the flags?

They do, more so now. Hence the pledge not to raise taxes which Labour will need to stick to.

The issue is tax and who pays it: British people often talk about great public services in places like Denmark. They do not vote for parties who propose policies like that. They vote on tax. In Denmark, the lowest paid workers do not have tax free allowances. Everyone pays tax across the board. Everyone. Yea the rich pay more, but you don’t have this system where no one contributes.

The UK has developed a totally skewed tax system. It builds resentment in higher rate payers. It’s not that they contribute the most. It’s that they are the contributors, full stop. If you get decent public services they mind less. But they’re not.

people feel like they are the horse, Boxer in George Orwell’s 1984; they are doing all the work.

People feel it’s not fair to finance, through their taxes, someone else’s life.

unfortunately no matter how a society is run there will always be poor people.

Taxes would be more palatable if it was felt we were all in it together, that a little bit of pain benefitted the whole of society would be easier to digest.
We need to get rid of the divisions, the othering and the feeling that it’s them and us. For some reason we can’t seem to get this right in the U.K. in this period of time.

Nordic countries often have higher taxes for everyone with lower starting tax exemption level, less bands and not high differences between rates.
i remember reading Helen Russell’s, ‘The Year of Living Danishly’
and whilst it may be out of date now was impressed with this. I use this as just one example, but I’d be all for this system that swimming pools were free for EVERYONE.

Well said

Because it’s not just the student debt when you go to uni, it’s living costs. Some people simply cannot afford to take 3-5 years to go to uni and need to start working, whether for financial reasons or for caring responsibilities etc. despite what you’re implying life and peoples lives are more nuanced

@Vinvertebrate you weren’t asking me to clarify anything, if you’d have read my post properly it would’ve been pretty clear. You just have an agenda and were shoehorning what you wanted to say in despite it not making sense in the context of what you were replying to 👍

@Abhannmor Who is Charles Osborne?

In the primary school I teach, even my Year 4 class- that's eight and nine year old children, understand that 'fair' does not equal 'same.'
Of course the super rich should pay the most tax, but many don't- they use creative accountancy to get around what they morally and in many cases legally owe
And if someone's too poor to pay tax, unlike you, I think it's reasonable that they shouldn't.

Jeremy Corbyn sets up new Left-wing party.

Former Labour leader, expelled by Sir Keir Starmer five years ago, will co-lead new party with Zarah Sultana

GO JEZZA, GO!

Anything to help split the Labour Party, is a good thing.

Don't recall eg Nigel Lawson or Charles Osborne shedding a tear as they casually destroyed millions of lives. It's cool to be a sociopath if you are A - a bloke and B - a Tory.

Does it show....contempt...I don't think so.

Yes it would be nice if she showed this level of empathy for the people she was proposing to cut benefits for...but she shouldn't resign for it.

She worked as an economist at the Bank of England 2000-2006. From 2006-2009 she worked for Halifax Bank of Scotland Retail banking arm. Initially in the mortgage department, later as Head of Business Planning in customer relations.

No they haven’t @Blossomtoes but they should. And there are still Tory stronghold LA’s where state grammars have never disappeared, of course (and I’m very grateful for them).

Grammar schools were the policy of a coalition government enshrined in the 1944 Education Act. If it was a Tory policy successive Conservative governments have had long periods in office to reinstate them but they haven’t.

Why can middle class students go £100k into debt but not poor students? They both have the same opportunity to repay the debt from their studies.

Lovely manners you have there @party4you - so characteristic of the left. (They wonder how a fuckwit like Farage becomes electable whilst calling everyone to the right of Chairman Mao thick as mince… 🙄) I was simply asking you to clarify your nonsensical 17.03 post.

I agree that SM became much trickier because successive governments have done away with things that actually helped, like grammar schools, assisted places and grants (all of which were Tory policies). 🤷🏻‍♀️ I’ve found the literature on SM rather partisan, as a lot of sociology studies are, and I also expect things to change with the current positive discrimination towards w/c applicants, but not necessarily for the better. There is a strong move towards this in law firms, for example, but I don’t believe it’s giving the profession higher quality applicants as a rule.

Everything worth doing is difficult. It wasn’t easy for me to stroll into a City law firm and convince them I’d make a highly profitable corporate lawyer, when the only other time I’d met a solicitor was when my mum used legal aid to try and extract CM from my absent dad. (You could do that, back in the day). I’m not playing poverty top trumps though. You’ve obviously done well in life and that’s great. Not everyone is cut out that way, and it’s easier to blame personal circumstances than accept that you perhaps didn’t make the grade.

Speaking of reading comprehension, grammar schools are typically state-run. Mine certainly was.

I never said they should be paid the same - - you’d think all that Tory education would help you read 🤔 You’re an exception, not the rule. The U.K. has very low social mobility, there’s plenty out there on it should you care to look. But I doubt you will since you don’t give a shiny shit.

I am the same as you, except I went to state schools. Yet somehow I can still recognise for the majority social mobility is difficult here.

ETA - I worked full time whilst at uni and still got a 1st (Russel Group) - yet I can see why others wouldn’t be able to. I didn’t have anyone to care for, and I didn’t have any placements on my course like a medical student would for example.

Power to you.

You evidently took ownership and responsibility for your future. I am of a similar background. Unfortunately, the socialists do breed a dependency-culture, for some of the reasons you have mentioned.

I find socialism utterly reprehensible.

She still looks happy though!!

There was plenty of social mobility in the UK. I was raised by a single mum on benefits in a council house. I got to grammar school (Conservative policy) and became the first person in my family to go to university (thanks to having my fees paid and a maintenance grant under another Conservative government - all abolished by Labour). Now we’re comfortably in the top 5% of household income. Does that make me working class or middle class?

If people want social mobility - and they should - we need to stop voting for socialists of any party affiliation, who are only interested in keeping their dependent client base. In the case of Labour, that used to be low-paid working people, but now their MO seems to be preserving their voters’ right to benefit dependency and endorsing worklessness amongst the young.

I’m still not sure why you think paying doctors and carers the same is a reasonable or tenable suggestion - care to elaborate?

But some people can’t afford to do that?! There’s very little social mobility in the UK. So the rich can stay rich and the poor can stay poor?

ETA - this is the issue with MN. Most of you are middle class yet think you represent the poor cos you’re hardly done to 🙄 do me a favour and actually think past your own lives for once.