Am I expecting too much from ND pre-teen?

I have a “high functioning” 14 year old DS with ASD so I do get how hard it is.
What is the worst that could happen if you left her to do her own thing and didn’t sit with her at all? It almost seems like you have to break the cycle of her needing to do those things as they have become almost ritualistic?
If she wails and screams, does it matter? I mean this kindly but she is nearly a teenager and nothing terrible is going to happen to her if she gets upset.
Can she not do the drawing downstairs earlier in the evening and unwind then?
I understand it’s a 2 hour process at the moment but it’s incredibly late for her going to bed at 10.30pm so I would try to at least move it forwards a bit.
Appreciate not every child is the same but DS is also very controlling and what has helped for him is to take away some of his choices and make the decisions for him as some of his distress is the inability to make decisions and organise. So we tell him we are taking the decisions away from him, so he effectively opts out and his need for control becomes less.
Not sure if that’s any help for your situation but effectively you are allowing her to make all her own choices at 12 and ND or not that’s not always a great idea.
I would start with, you are going upstairs at this time. You need to do XYZ, when it is done I will come up but I will decide how long for then you will go to sleep. In the morning you will need to be up at this time for me to take you to school, if you aren’t then you will walk and be late.
Yes she will be distressed and yes it will be tough but it’s better to have a shorter period of her being upset than years of this. I assume she manages ok at school and tasks there don’t take 2 hours, so she can do it.

OP, I don't have direct experience if parenting a ND teen so this may be completely irrelevant/inappropriate, in which case feel free to ignore it. But something is really jumping out to me, which is the way your DD is experiencing your boundaries as you 'making her feel bad', and that you are using this language yourself.

This isn't what's happening. She is making herself feel bad, because of how she is internalising and interpreting your actions in her own head. That is in no way suggesting that she is doing this deliberately, or that this default way of thinking is her fault, or weakness, or whatever. BUT it is a very powerless way of thinking. As long as she believes that your behaviours are directly responsible for her emotional experience, she will be stuck with feeling and being out of control of herself.

It sounds like she would really benefit from starting to understanding her own power and agency over her emotional response, so that over time and with practice she can start taking more responsibility for it. This is something we've been working on very hard for over a year with one of our teen DC who has significant MH challenges, and their mindset is finally beginning to shift in a positive way. It's not easy though and DC is not ND (we believe) so I'm not sure how applicable it would be to your DD.

This is 100% the same for us with ADHD 10 year old DD. Exact same list of activities which tend to get dragged out and then we have to ‘sit’ with her. 😫

OP, fwiw the way we manage bedtime is to stay with him until he is asleep. He’s 12. DH and I alternate each night and it’s at least a full hour between 9-10pm every night. I used to hate it, but we’ve gradually reframed it to be special 1:1 time. It’s cuddles and hearing the monologue of the day. It’s a time to vent and sometimes to laugh and be silly. It’s protected time.

DH and I carve out some time earlier in the evening to catch up together, watch a tv show, go for a walk, spend time with our older NT teen, etc. Once a week without fail we pay our older teen to put DS12 to bed (spend that full hour with him) and we go to the pub or the cinema or sometimes we shut the door on our bedroom and take in a bottle of wine.

I don’t know when this need for bedtime company will abate; surely it will! But until then it has helped (us all) to frame it positively.

Solidarity OP. Your children are lucky to have you

Oh god I feel this comment so much. Sorry to jump onto thread but god this is very real for me too

My daughter has PDA. She is 26 now and lives with her boyfriend. So I'm through it now!

I guess you know about demands making some children disregulated. Some people see it as bad behaviour but it's really a sort of panic attack.

In the moment you are stuck. They care about winning much more than you do and they can drag it out.

My main advice is not to force a battle. Constantly be thinking how you can give the appearance of being in charge, even if you are not. So never show anger or frustration. If you know bedtime is a trigger, prepare for what's going to come.

Try crazy tactics, like get a baby sitter round when it starts up and go out. Every night. You need to set this up in advance of course.

Send your son away on a pgl camp or similar while you do this so he's not impacted.

But the main thing is to consistently give her the message that you understand her and have her best interests in mind at all times. This means consoling her even when you think she is over reacting, stepping in to fix sth or stop sth before it all goes bad. Making sure you aren't battling over small stuff. Giving her as much autonomy in ways she can cope with eg her clothes.

So choose the thing that most upsets you eg bedtime and just focus on that for now.

Boundaries aren't going to work. You've tried that. You need horse whispering rather than horse breaking xx

Hi we have a bit of this issue but I was also like that when little "just finishing the chapter".

I think for us what worked was some rules

• when we can be flexible we are but things like school, doctors, travel, when I say we leave we leave. I won't be late for that.

• just finishing - we let her finish the battle, the chapter, the claiming of rewards - I also game so know how it is - but she needs to show us the respect that when that's done that's done.

She is now nearly 14 and secondary school seems to have helped her sense of responsibility. I let her do a lot of things as long as she shows me the respect of being home by X time and letting me know where she is and so on.

She knows I will let her do a lot of within reason so she tries not to lose that. It's hard to explain as it took a while to get here and I used to lose my temper but them apologized and tried to explain my side and why we needed to do X at X time, for example

In her case I think puberty helped her maturity

There is light at the end of the tunnel op, we were where you are a few years ago. There has been some great advice on this thread and I’d agree that she can get herself to school, it’s good for her to have more independence and it can be framed positively.
I did have a mantra at the time of let it go and I think we eventually only insisted on teeth being brushed and face washed which we had to stand over her to make sure it happened.
Something that I believe helped my DD to start to get perspective was watching programmes featuring ASD characters together such as Atypical and young Sheldon (although I believe the writers have said the character isn’t on the spectrum). Your DD maybe too young for Atypical atm but YS could be worth a pop.

I will say I loved it though as I downloaded it too 😂 The app is called Finch if anyone is interested.

Aaargh - not for everyone I guess!

Of course you aren't this bad. But MIL jas never questioned her decisions or he rparenting in any way. She's stll confused about all sorts of things!

We tried this with this exact app, and dd got so focussed on it and it would cause massive meltdowns if she ‘forgot’ to do it because she felt really bad for the bird 🥲 It is a nice idea though.

Does she have a phone and is she game-orientated? My ADHD friend with crazy executive dysfunction has found an app where she gets a little digital pet, and then if she can check off activities on her list (drink water, do yoga, journal, bed by 9pm) she gets points she can use to feed/clothe/treat her little digital pet with. She is a 40 year old woman. She says she knows in her head it's silly but somehow it's more motivating than anything she's tried before. I forget the name of the app but might this be useful for your DD to establish some good habits?

God I could have written your post ! My daughter is 9 (ADHD) and we have the same ridiculous bedtime shenanigans, she won’t settle until 10.30 and I have to be there.
Endless promoting and cajoling.

If I finally get her into the bathroom to do her teeth there’s still a 50% chance she’ll start making potions out of shampoo instead etc.

We have had periods where she requires a lot less input and there’s fewer meltdowns, though.

These periods aren’t influenced by any successful approach from us but by her being more regulated. Whether that’s because she’s not having a hormone surge, or Xmas is finally over (December is hell for us) or things are better at school etc.

Just sending solidarity really, and agree with PP that earlier melatonin might help. My daughter seems a bit calmer when having this earlier even if sleep is still a few hours off.

and yes to dividing and conquering so one of you has an evening off - though hard to escape in the same bloody house

Hello @HippyKayYay I have a autistic daughter and we used to have HUGE issues at bed time (still have minor ones) but it does improve.

We still have the 'i can't do x earlier as x belongs in this time' but one thing that helps is telling her we need to do x now, not in 5 or 10 minutes.

For example to leave the house we used to say "we need to leave in ten minutes" thinking she knew she had to clean her teeth and get her bag and do her hair to leave in ten minutes... nope, because in her mind leaving in ten minutes means she has ten minutes to continue doing her stuff.

So we talked to her and now we say "we have to leave now" and that means she goes and does all that she needs to do to leave and it works...

Alarms also work - in the morning we have one for breakfast and one for finishing breakfast -but those are also for me (diagnosed ADHD)

In the evening there are a lot of little parts to it, but we manage to follow them in order and I still sit in the room 5/10 minutes but we got to a point where i can hug her and leave while she is still awake... i know her knowing i am there for her if it's really important is what gave her the confidence of not needing me there to sleep.

I sleep late (thanks peri and adhd) so she can sometimes get up, come to me for a hug while I am faffing on the phone and go back to bed... and even if i have gone to bed if I am not yet asleep i get up to give her a hug (she won't wake me if i am snoring :-D )

She does know the boundaries - for example if i am ill i change things, and distubing the sibling is a no-no, and so on - and things are getting better

A smart speaker in her room with timer countdowns, ie at 8.30 it beeps and says "put on your shoes". It's easier coming from an inflexible machine rather than you, who she can dispute the time with

Sorry, I know I'm back again but I just want to add to what @Mrsttcno1 is saying. I believe that PIL were truly awful parents. Not because they are awful people - they aren't, they are wonderful people. But becuase, for lots of reasons (including their own likely ND) they didn't know how to manage their DC and they had very little emotional regulation themselves.

On the other hand, while I think I probably ALSO have some ADHD traits (and I do have family members diagnosed so there's no reason to believe it isn't genetically in our family too), my parents were (I now realise) very very good at the right boundaries, and that level of consistency. So yes, I thought they were unfair. I still think they made some mistakes. BUT, I can look back and see the benefits of their approach and, where they DID make mistakes, I can see those were for the right reasons. This has also reassured me when I'm having to leave DS to believe I'm being super super mean - I remember that those feelings didn't come with me into adulthood but I remember feelng them in the moment as a child and teenager.

MIL, on the other hand, spent DH's childhood veering from tiptoeing around him and his sister and giving them whatever they wanted, to borderline emotional abuse when she lost her rag. It has had significant and long-lasting impacts on them as adults.

You’ve had some really good advice already OP, there isn’t much I’d add but what I will say is that being low demand, being flexible, bending over backwards to accommodate every little thing to avoid conflict is not something that can be done permanently, full time, forever, unless you are Mary Poppins. Even if it was possible it isn’t teaching or preparing DD for the world, it’s not good for you, your husband or your other child.

You have to decide what your/the household boundaries are, obviously taking into account her needs, routine etc, and once you’ve decided that- stick to it. No sudden changes, no negotiating, just “this is what’s happening”, when the verbal abuse starts you are allowed to walk away. As @MageQueen says being a good parent does not mean being your child’s physical, emotionally or verbal punching bag with no consequences- that doesn’t raise good, healthy and well rounded adults.

The bottom like is that you are not perfect, nobody is, but the more run down you get, the more burnt out you get, the worse everything becomes. Something has to give and that thing really truly cannot be your mental health, for the sake of not just yourself but both of your children.

I don't think i'm qualified to be anyone's parnting coach! . But I'm a bit further down the line than you and i recognise so much of what you're going through. I'm not out the other side, but I do see these little pockets of light.

The distress IS real. That was what made it so hard. when he is screaming at me about how awful I am, IN THAT MOMENT, he truly means it. It's horrible.

BUT, I can't change his mind when he's in that state, so the best thing I can do is minimise my exposure and reduce the opportunities for him to say these things.

I've mentioned that I think DH's entire family have ADHD. One of the things I've found very difficlt to manage with him and the rest of them is their emotional disregulation. And the way that when they're upset, they will say and do things that are completely unacceptable and think it's fine. I have been determined to help DS NOT to stay in this cycle as he grows up. It has destroyed relationships and caused a lot of angst for all of them and I don't want that for him.

Last week, he got into trouble at school. Then he made it worse by basically behaving like a knob. When he rang me, he started with "Mum, I KNOW I shoudn't have said and done those things but I just couldn't help it right then. Sir kept on my case and Daniel wouldn't stop and I just needed a moment and I couldn't get it."

That felt like HUGE progress to me. And he took his punishment subsequently. He's learning what his triggers are and he's leearning to take responsibility. We have a long long way to go, but I feel like we're on the right path. Finally.

well maybe, but you need to teach her that being asked to go to bed is not something to be 'distressed' about. If she was feeling unwell, in pain, or genuinely upset about something serious, then of course you offer comfort, but 11 pm is not the time for her to start kicking off and keeping the whole household awake. It's not fair on anyone, herself included. She has school the next day, as does her brother and you have work.

Christ I feel like I could have written this!! It’s actually uncanny.