Am I expecting too much from ND pre-teen?

I think you need to simplify things right back.

Be straightforward (but do not bend). ‘I’m really tired on an evening. I’m not spending my evening doing this dance with you. I’m going to come in and say goodnight when I’m going to settle down for the evening. You don’t have to turn your light off then, and if you want to keep it on all night, that’s fine. But once I say goodnight, that’s it and you need to leave me to sleep’.

I would suggest actually (pretending to) go to sleep the first few nights while she adjusts her mindset.

She may need a lot less sleep than you. Does it matter if her light stays on?

She will probably counter with she NEEDS to turn off the light but she NEEDS you to do that etc etc. You just need to keep reaffirming the same message without compromise. ‘If you want me to pop the light off when I come to say goodnight, that’s fine, but it’ll be at the time I decide, not the time you decide’. And no further discussion on it.

She has control of light on/light off, getting into bed/not getting into bed but she doesn’t have control of you and your evening.

With regard to mornings - does she care about being late/getting into trouble at school? If so, let her be late and let her face the consequence at school rather than that being another home battle (we always did this with homework too and it was effective). Then again, she has the choice for herself - she’s on time, or she’s not on time. But you step away from the micro management of making sure she’s on time. If she wants a lift, does it actually matter what time? If it doesn’t impact on your work, are you just fighting a battle for the sake of it? Could you try just relaxing on the morning, leaving her to it (within reason) to take the pressure off and seeing how that goes? Obviously none of this advice works if she doesn’t want to go to school and doesn’t care whether she gets in trouble or not!

So sorry you are going through this. Your DD sounds very much like our DD who is now 14. She has an ASD diagnosis and I would say she is high functioning but definitely hard work at home.
re your DD shouting and waking your son up. Stamp this out now. Make it clear that it is absolutely unacceptable. We have a saying that ASD is a reason for her behaviour but not an excuse to be mean to other people. Interrupting your son’s sleep is absolutely not ok. Be very firm here.
on her bed room routine - I would low demand it. What is happening isn’t working for you. So don’t try and move her through - just check she has done her teeth and then leave her to it. She clearly needs less sleep or space than you

Just coming back on to add a couple of things. You and your husband need to make some time for you, get a trusted relative or friend to come and stay while you, if finances permit, book a weekend or just one night away just the two of you. doesn’t have to be somewhere amazing, just somewhere that’s not your house. You might feel that your DD’s difficulties mean this is not possible but just do it. We were lucky in having some very clued up no nonsense family members who were able to do this for us and it worked wonders. First it gives you both a break and time together to just get some distance and objectivity and hopefully enjoy yourselves!. Secondly it will give your DD a break from you and I mean this in the nicest possible way she will be benefit from this. When we did this we deliberately didn’t leave many instructions regarding routine either. Sometimes letting go of the what if’s and allowing what will be will be is best!
Finally and I say this as you mention you are feeling burnt out, book yourself onto a course for you- not necessarily a parenting course but perhaps something like NLP or CBT that will help you look at your beliefs and see how you can do things differently, it’s usually more practical to look at how you can change your own behaviour.
You are in the trenches and it’s hard but you are already doing a bloody good job, let yourself know that! Sending solidarity and strength!

I would also suggest ADHD Dude on this.
He's in a podcast with another ADHD therapist (ADHD Guys) and there was a recent one about bedtimes (I think it was a listener questions or a coaching session one - but they are mainly pretty good so just have a listen to a few).

I was going to ask why the specific bed time - and could you be flexible on that? But is it because she's needing you there? DD is my NT child but this anxiety about being anxious is something I recognise. For some reason, she really struggles if I am a sleep BEFORE her. So I've had to insist she has to stick to bed times becuase if we're up late, then I can't stay awake.

I build negotiation time in. I tell DD 10 minutes, knowing perfectly well I'm aactually fine with her reading for 15. Then after 5 monutes, I give her a five minute warning. At 10 minutes, I tell her time's up. she asks for more. I agree 2 more. Maybe one more time. Then done.

Used to do similar with DS.

She may be anxious but you can set your expectations and let her know how hard you know it is for her, and how much you sympathise, and brainstorm ideas with her which she can contribute to, but let her know the bottom line, and thatbthis isn't negotiable.

You decide the bottom line, which might be incremental shifts from her current demands.

It will be hard for her but likelihood is that she will cope.

I bent over backwards with my PDA daughter. She never did any chores for example. None. Her food issues were extreme and I accepted them. So I'm not about forcing asd kids into everything society thinks they should do. But for me there were limits to how far she could rule the family routines. And I found that if I showed tolerance in areas like food, chores etc, she understood that there were some non negotiable issues, where if I was unwilling to shift, she grudgingly went along with it.

So I gave her 90% of what she wanted, and she had to give me 10% if that makes sense.

I do understand how hard it is - but really she will cope with being slightly challenged.

My biggest ever issue with my daughter was her bedroom. She wouldn't let anyone in and it was a right mess. She went on a school residential trip and I spent the whole week clearing it out. I got my husband to pick her up take her to a cafe and tell her what I had done, while I took my other daughter out for a few hours. She responded exactly as we expected. When she got home she practically wrecked the room in her fury. It was extreme. But still I did the right thing and she knew it. She talks about this incident a lot btw. It was stressful for her but it made her feel safe that I wasnt scared of her, that I didnt back off because at one level she knew the room needed fixing.

Im trying to suggest you find that spot, where she kicks off at your demands, but you are able to cope with her reaction and she copes in the end.

It's hard. Both of mine need this level of support at bedtime and getting ready in the morning and it is exhausting. But they need what they need. You need to find ways to meet the needs without burning out yourself.
I recommend a Facebook group called Gentle Parenting Autistic/ADHd/PDA Children UK and beyond where you'll get lots of helpful advice from parents who've been there, and from autistic people as well.

You need to read up about PDA.

That’s pretty much what I meant as well although I didn’t explain it so well. If she kicks off, she kicks off. I assume she responds to instructions at school without having to do a specific routine or ordering her teachers around so they do what she wants them to do (which is in essence what she is doing to you). She maybe ND but she needs to live in the real world not have every single person treading on eggshells around her.
I agree with the other poster who said tell her that it’s bedtime at 9.45 or whatever time you want then leave. Think of it as controlled crying in a baby, yes she will kick off and be distressed but she is safe in a loving home, no harm is going to come to her by going to bed. I get that she is anxious but you are feeding into her anxiety by staying with her by showing her that you need to be with her to stop her being anxious.

At 12, she is old enough and high functioning enough to understand the reasons why you are doing it. If something doesn’t change then you are still going to be doing this in 4 years time when she is doing her GCSE’s. I do understand that you would do anything to keep her happy (trust me there are things I do with DS which would shock my friends) but this is having a huge impact on your family and I suspect it’s also not particularly beneficial for your DD as it’s only going to get more extreme.

This is the basic idea of scaling. The trick is to take a step back and learn to spot the little signs that things aren’t going well, so for eg ds would go a little red under his eyes at a stage 3, if we didn’t take certain measures (like sensory stuff) he would end up at meltdown.

Until we learnt that we missed loads of little signs, so it was very useful, and then great to teach ds how to spot things for himself. My daughter is in her twenties and I still find myself watching for her signs as she still misses them for herself when overwhelmed.

Re bedtime - you might find that heading her off much earlier before there are any signs at all makes for a more successful bedtime. Do you do any sensory diet activities? That might be worth looking at. Mine liked to be squashed - so squeezing their arms, squashing under cushions.

Worked with mine at 12. The instant reward was the trick. Tailor it to your child, but maybe try some ideas from parents who’ve been there and done that and come out the other side. Preteen stage is tough.

Edited to add that there are elements of these things that I do with my 14 year old, particularly the lists. Don’t knock it until you’ve tried it.

Edited again to add that gradual withdrawal worked last year with my 14 year old. I had to lie in bed with him as he was so anxious.

Edited again to add that your response has really annoyed me. I took the time to respond with methods that have helped me with my children who sound similar to your dd. One of the main things that got me through some really traumatic years was trialling suggestions from more experienced MNers who’d survived the very same issues. I hope you find some peace, it’s a tough road, but I’ll bow out now.

I guess what I mean is that she is running the show atm and I'm trying to suggest ways for you to take back control, because it will make her feel safer and more able to trust your decisions. Others are suggesting this too, only they are suggesting tougher boundaries. I'm suggesting a different approach where you take control in a less obvious way. Sorry if I didnt make that clear.

There is a parenting technique called NVR (non violent resistance), which is really aimed at very challenging, often violent situations, but also young people who dont "launch" when they leave school and just live in their bedrooms and get their parents do everything for them.

And in nvr, the theory is that you cant necessarily change your child but you can stand in your own truth, make it clear what is acceptable and what isn't, regardless of outcome. You disengage from their behaviours. Any change in their behaviour is great, but what really matters is that you are taking back control in your house.

Nvr is a big, big subject, and the full programme includes aspects that aren't always helpful imo.

But some of it is good advice. Choose one behaviour to work on. You choose the biggest issue and ignore everything else for now.

You stay calm and prepared. You have a strategy - i suggested the babysitter option but you could eg warn the neighbours there might be trouble, have a friend pop round. You could offer alternatives.

You will get kickback. It will be hard. But you will get your evening back and she will feel safer because she will see that she isn't in control.

Just going to list a few things that helped us:

Use sand timers instead of telling her and giving verbal warnings. Be clear what it means and what you expect her to do when time runs out.

Do a very slow exit from her room for settling down. Do not tell her in advance of the whole plan, do it in baby steps, so eg “I’m going to sit on the end of your bed” and do that until she’s comfortable with that, then gradually move away, even over 6 months, so it’s a very slow progression to you sitting in the doorway, on the landing etc.

For the run up to anything regular (getting up and going to school, going to bed) laminate a tick box list, list everything she needs to do, pick only essential things, once all ticked off she can have a treat, a little sweet, a cracker type toy, something little but an immediate reward.

Tag team when both parents are home, make sure each child gets each parent for some calm time if you can.

Learn how to scale - something like the incredible 5 point scale or similar - not only does it teach the child to learn to recognise that they’re getting disregulated, but it also helps you to learn to spot the signs early on that she needs help to prevent it all escalating.

Pick your battles. If she’s in a high stress state dial back your expectations.

Once used to using lists use paper lists so you can start switching round the order (if this is something she needs - we used it for days out to be able to allow flexibility - eg if it was rainy we could pick another activity from the list, or add in something else and cross something else out, but pace it, start slowly).

I haven’t read the whole thread so sorry if I’ve repeated stuff.