To wonder why women do this to themselves?

Some of them look more feminine than actual women.

Quite possibly. Femininity, in this context, is a performance, a set of adornments and behaviours, that can be adopted or discarded at will and doesn't dictate a person's actual sex. It is changeable and subjective, again unlike sex.

What's an "actual woman"?

A man who uses padding, face tape, heavy make up and a wig, is still a man, so his 'femininity' is a matter of bias and opinion of the observer. A women who has botox and fillers is still a woman so her femininity is a matter of fact. I'm really not sure what point is being served by the comparison? You think some women's procedures make them look like drag Queens, and this is 'grotesque'. You think some men's costumes make them look feminine. I'm still struggling to see the link.

It is my opinion, well done for noticing. And we know that your opinion on whether something is self expression or clownish and worthy of ridicule depends on whether the person doing it is a man or woman since you, like everyone, know who the women are.

That's your opinion. I think she looks very masculine!

Yes but the whole point is that they're men, which changes the whole dynamic because the only person doing ridiculous woman stereotypes in performance isn't actually a woman. And it's an aesthetic that women don't actually do unless they're performing too. Hence Ru Paul saying that he impersonates drag queens, not women. I don't think Sanchez has done herself any favours but it's ridiculous to say she looks like Ru Paul in drag. Men performing caricatures of femininity that aren't actually supposed to pass as female and indeed don't are not the point of reference for a woman styling herself.

Put another way, Sanchez might look like a bad version of herself, but we don't determine that by how she stacks up against a man doing a bad version of women. She doesn't resemble, and is not, a man playing at being a woman.

A man who portrays themselves as a specific type of woman. A lot of them are very convincing, as well. They aren't all six foot burly guys with five o'clock shadow, you know. Some of them look more feminine than actual women.

Don’t be ridiculous. Even a tiny divorce settlement from the world’s richest man would mean she would live a life of great luxury and privilege for the rest of her life. Also, she’s 55 and quite rich in her own right. You’re coming across as very bitter indeed.

I agree and I have long thought this, especially about very obvious breast implants.
It's signals an extreme willingness to subordinate yourself to the desires of men, even to your own detriment.

They do it for men.
And men look at them and think "if they will do that for me... if they will go through surgery, disfigure their faces and bodies, they will do anything for me..."

Drag queens present a very specific extreme parodic image of femininity - that is what I am referring to.

Anyway we will have to agreed to disagree, I don’t have time to argue further.

A drag queen, by definition, is a man!

I didn’t say she looked like a man I said she looked a like a drag queen which is a specifically stylised caricature of femininity.

She looks nothing like a man. She looks like a woman who's had too much surgery and she's really trying to look younger rather than more feminine; she wouldn't look like a man without any surgery, she'd just look like an older woman. A man trying to perform femininity is not the benchmark for a woman's appearance.

ah yes, got it. I don't have much idea what he talks about, i am not really interested in what most of these people say.

But agree there is nothing like 92 private jets descending on a city that will be ravaged by climate change and the rising sea levels etc that will bring.

“mY hUsBaNd AgReEs”

Well, your husband isn’t the richest man on the planet, and I doubt he could ever bag someone like Lauren Sanchez anyway, so he’s not exactly qualified to judge 🙃

I don’t get the logic that it is fine for women to espouse feminine gender stereotypes because they are women, but not for drag queens/transwomen because feminine gender stereotypes are harmful and drag queens/transwomen adopting them is harmful to women? Surely gender stereotypes are harmful full stop?

Absolutely. There is a definite masculinity to some of these very enhanced women.

I’ve never said she is defined by men, (although her self-modification is defined by what she thinks is the male gaze). She looks both like a woman creating a sexualised caricature and a man doing the same thing. There’s an exaggerated parodic performative aspect to drag queen self-presentation.

Personally I dislike any discussion that focuses on aesthetics framed as feminism. The dangers of procedures, societal pressure on women and stereotypes of femininity are feminist issues. The impact on women of some men claiming to be women is a feminist issue. Attacking the aesthetics of a person's appearance, be they a man identifying as a woman or a woman with fillers, calling human beings grotesque and sex clowns, be they men or women, is nothing to do with feminism for me.

I don't care about who DiCaprio dates. My problem with him is how he preaches about the environment while taking private jets and super yachts. His private life is his own business, but his hypocrisy over the environment is absurd.

there are rumours that DiCaprio is gay and the women he dates in public are beards though. It appears to be mutually beneficial so, meh. (i also don't care if he is gay or straight. He's an actor, it really shouldn't matter)

What the Bezos wedding showed me, though, is that a lot of people with far far too much money can't buy class. They can buy conspicuous consumption, but they all look awful. The only one who i saw in any of the photos (which i admittedly didn't search for, they just come across my SM) who looked at all good was Usher.

Oh and sadly Orlando Bloom no longer looks like an elf.

I agree that that's the worst thing about all of that set of people. To be fair, though, I have less beef with her about that than I do with the likes of that disgusting hypocrite DiCaprio.

The irony is that some women are modifying their appearance in a way that makes them resemble a man creating an exaggerated stereotypical portrait & gender performance of femininity

Sorry, but this is arse about face, so to speak. A woman might spoil her looks with too many procedures but she's still a woman and not defined by men who mock or badly emulate her. She doesn't look like a man exaggerating femininity, she looks like a woman exaggerating femininity. Or just youth, to the best of her practitioners' ability. The man who tries to get that look is imitating her; she's not imitating him.

Ru Paul famously said that he did not dress like a woman, he dressed like a drag queen.

well i think she looks fake and plastic -but that is up to her.

I am far far far more scathing about her conspicuous consumption. But i grudgingly admire that she doesn't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks of her.

Thank you, you've expressed yourself better than I could.