Is it just a societal norm? (Breastfeeding related)

I understand when a child is older and away from their mother for longer periods of time at nursery ect that cow's milk would then be easier. But when the child is mainly at home with their mother, say under the age 3, why should she choose a cow's breastmilk over her own?

This quote from the OP jumped out at me. Great if you have three years maternity leave, or independent wealth. Most people are not operating from that position of privilege though, and have to make health decisions whilst balancing competing priorities. I think most people understand that breast is best, no argument there. But working mothers may find formula more convenient. Doesn't mean they don't care about their babies, or want what's best for them, but if the rest of the family are going to eat, then they have to be back at work long before the three years quoted above.

Have you got any evidence to back this up?
People state things about breastfeeding that simply aren't true...
Breast milk is what babies are biologically supposed to have, it's designed for them. It has living things in it that they can't replicate in formula, immune factors, good bacteria for the gut etc.
Formula is made from cows milk which is designed for cows not humans.
Breastfeeding actually reduces risk of certain cancers, heart disease and hip fracture/osteoporosis.

Fair enough. I was using you as an example to point out that the breast feeding debate perhaps get side tracked down roads that while correct are not the most useful. Maybe the arguments won’t be as useful as giving partners 3 months dedicated leave when a baby is born to support a breast feeding mother, for example?

I don’t like judgement of women who don’t breastfeed. It’s entirely understandable for numerous reasons. Here’s a couple.

It hurts. Even with a good latch and no tongue tie many women find it very painful at first. Often exhausted by a painful and unsupported birth experience with no time or support to recover, it’s just another horrible experience that not everyone can face

There is often very little support given. The support given- if found - is often extremely contradictory - diametrically opposed views/ advice from different professionals.

Lack of support or judgement - society doesn’t support it - see my previous post.

Again, population level.

I have a first class honours degree from LSE and post grad qualifications so perfectly capable of research.

Best how?

The UK is weird when it comes to BF (and has some of the lowest BF rates worldwide).Just do what suits you. I both BF mine till 3 and got a lot of weird comments. Couldn't care less.

I'm not really trying to argue tbh. How can I argue against "I didn't want to" and "my kids turned out fine" when the evidence is freely available. It would be a waste of my time to try.

I had plenty of research material (and am married to a GP) but on balance, like many others, decided using formula was best for our family.

I think the views are entirely down to the juvenile and immature attitude to women’s breasts - that they are first and foremost sexual objects for men.

Breastfeeding is regarded as kind of indecent and horrible and as primarily performed for show or sexual gratification, rather than to feed an infant with a substance naturally generated and designed for it by its primary caregiver and defender.

I can’t stop you from judging. But, I have said the argument isn’t compelling and you’ve said that you don’t understand why but offered no further arguments. I’m not sure where you would like to go from here?

The counter argument is for many people a good one, people do not necessarily make the same value judgement on population versus personal. They have a different set of values to base their choices on. I guess if you cannot frame tour arguments in terms of their values those arguments won’t be effective?

People’s views on breastfeeding are so bloody weird. Idk if it’s just this country or not. You are expected to breastfeed because breast is best! but oh no you must only do it for a few months otherwise it’s weird and sexual! And definitely DON’T do it in public, what if you gasp happen to show a tiny bit of flesh!

I breastfed both of my children. Strongly pushed into it by the midwives and HV but no actual practical support given. The only person who was remotely supportive when I had problems with my ds1 was an unpaid volunteer from a charity. Ds1 had a tongue tie that wasn’t diagnosed until he was nearly 4 months old, by a lactation consultant that I paid through the nose to come to my house because I was so desperate by this point. I told my HV, thinking she’d be happy for me because she knew there were issues (I didn’t mention that she’d missed the diagnosis….) only for her to say that I was wasting my money!

Compare that directly to my now ex MIL who had a weird thing about breastfeeding, pressuring me to give him water when it got into the spring/summer, saying “when he gets to 6 months he can have juice instead of milk”. Then my friend, who took it as a personal insult that I breastfed and she didn’t (I didn’t give a shit that she didn’t) and told me “it’s all very well for you to do that with your first as you’ve got loads of time to sit on the sofa all day but you can’t do that with your second”. When we met up after I’d had ds2 I breastfed him on a park bench whilst ds1 was running around. She didn’t want to meet up again. 🤣

Then my now ex husband, who thought it was weird and embarrassing that little ds1, who was 3 at the time, used to pretend to breastfeed his teddies. 🤣 Of course he was quite happy for me to breastfeed because it meant less for him to do…

With ds1 I stopped at about 15 months but ds2 it was more like 20 months. I would have stopped earlier with ds2 but he wasn’t a good sleeper and it was one of the only things that would get him back to sleep again. I don’t think I told many people especially not my now ex MIL, who probably just assumed I’d given up long before. She’d probably have stopped speaking to me if she knew the truth 🤣

Sorry to rant. But yes, people’s views on breastfeeding are very weird, and most people project their shit onto new breastfeeding mums, oddly at a time when they are feeling very vulnerable. It’s not right.

It just baffles me how the clear evidence isn't compelling enough for women to at least attempt to breastfeed. There are many good reasons to formula-feed but, I'm sorry, if the reason is purely because "I didn't want to" then I'm going to judge a little.

I also find it so strange how their counter argument is always "well my kid is perfectly healthy and my cousins breastfed children are always sick." It does point to a lack of understanding and ability to interpret the evidence.

Perhaps? You could make some generalised statements about that from which counties have the higher breast feeding rates based on education levels. For example, Cambridgeshire does well comparatively to the rest of the country, though I’ve not done a rigorous analysis by any means. But I don’t think that takes away from my point that the argument is not compelling for a lot of women and repeating it at them doesn’t appear to be changing minds.

I think this is perhaps a link to the fact that more educated women are more likely to breastfeed because they actually understand the evidence.

I also think that people don’t find the population level arguments compelling. I don’t know of a single bottle feeding mum who doesn’t know about the increased risks of cancer or the lower weight levels, or asthma levels being lower. I was even told at my first midwife visit that it lowers the risk of PND. We are told these things but it doesn’t feel like a good argument to care about population level things when I want to focus on my family in the moment and what feels good for us.

@jannier Not attacking at all - just stating a fact that ultimately can't be refuted.

Bottle feeding does help share the load. But I guess it goes back to how there needs to be more support for women particularly in the newborn days. Historically women weren’t trying to raise a baby on their own while their husbands was at work - they had the support of their whole family

Sorry what do you mean?

I also think for some it's a feminist issue BF can be said to chain women bottle feeding and contraception was a liberator. Today we see returning to work as a negative in the 60s and 70s it was a step to equality

But I'm talking cave men and how the natural instinct carries down just like dogs will always have some wolf. Is that the reason why some are so judgemental?

Things only really changed for humans relatively recently with the introduction of agriculture.
Before that for the vast majority of human history we were hunter-gatherers and evolved to breastfeed for years at a time.
With the introduction of agriculture humans started living in settlements, babies/toddlers were no longer carried all the time and could be left somewhere while women worked. Animal milks could be used. Breastfeeding durations became shorter and births spaced closer.

The difference being 'natural' breastfeeding would be every 20 minutes or so while carrying the baby/child on your hip and sleeping together and feeding throughout the night - with no dummies or bottles, much later introduction of solids. And hunter-gatherer women would be very slim and fit with low body weight and a high level of activity.

Very different from a modern scenario of babies feeding every 2-3 hours, being put down, sleeping separately, and mothers being mostly sedentary and well fed.

Much better put than me about pregnancy spacing!

That’s interesting about breastfeeding only being marginally better than formula. Can you point me in the direction of somewhere I can read about that?

I spend a lot of time nap trapped so I’m enjoying reading about baby development!