Where are the trans men?

Female single sex spaces are not there to protect male people above the age of about 8 years old. Just because a group of male people feel unsafe in male single sex spaces, the solution was never and still isn’t to allow those male people to be prioritised over the female people who need single sex spaces.

If male people feel unsafe in their spaces, they need to address this directly. They need to campaign to make male spaces safer for all males, including those with gender identities.

No other vulnerable male groups of people get the privilege to use female single sex spaces. And certainly not male people with the philosophical belief that they have an identity that is means they are somehow not male people. Ie. a philosophical belief that doesn’t reflect the material reality of their body.

This argument about safety is lazy and misses several other pertinent points.

Male people at any stage of transition still have been shown to have the same risk level of committing sex crimes as all other male people in the UK.

Female people need to have privacy and dignity away from all male people, it is not just about safety. Female people use the public spaces in their toilets, to use a toilet example, differently to male people.

Male people at any stage in their transition will have some physical advantage over female people. Even if it just height and the extra leverage their bone structure and their hip placement. There is a reason that male people are considered a risk to female people and this doesn’t change due to ‘transition’. To argue differently is making a Chesterton’s fence argument. It is forgetting why spaces were segregated in the first place. Not all male people are like that, and never were. But still enough were that robust safeguarding principles were developed to keep male people out.

This hasn’t changed. All male people are kept out of a space described as being for female people as per the Supreme Court Judgement in April 2024. Which clarified that this has been law in the Uk since 2010 but was misinterpreted.

@AccidentallyWesAnderson Yes!

Very well said, @FlirtsWithRhinos. Top post.

It’s like dealing with flat earthers.

Ok transwomen are women. We have replaced the old sex-based meaning of "Woman" with a new, shiny better meaning based on the belief that the difference between men and women is mental not physical. Seems pretty sexist to me, but ok. For this post, I'll accept that.

Thing is, women's spaces and womens rights and so on were not set up on a whim for people of "womanly mind". They were set up as direct responses to the risks and challenges faced by people with female bodies. They were called "women's" not in anticipation that future trans women should also be included but for the very simple reason that at the time, "woman" still had the old sex based meaning and was the name for female people.

And although the meaning of "woman" may have changed since then, female bodied people do still exist. Pretty much half of humanity is female bodied and every single human that ever lived owes their existence to one of those people so it's not like we are some obscure hidden sect. And those risks and challanges we faced because of our bodies are still there even if we aren't called "women" any more.

Yes, sadly, they did not go away along with the word. They seem to be very annoyingly stuck to our bodies.

So what I do not get is why on the one hand it's all "Trans women are women, it's not about the body and you don't have to be female to be a woman" but on the other it's "Because trans women are women they need to be included in everyting set up for female people, you can't have things for female people that do not include trans women".

Seems like a contradiction there surely? Either being female-bodied is significant to being a woman, in which case trans women are not women, or being female-bodied is not sigificant to being a woman, in which case trans women don't have any claim on female-only spaces and supports and it's entirely reasonable for them to continue to exist.

Can you explain to me clearly how it works that trans women, who are not female and don't have to deal with the challenges (physical and social) of being female, are entitled to the supports for female people, but female people, who are, obviously, female and do deal with the challenges that brings, are not entitled to have female-only anything?

You are not even trying to understand what I wrote and wilfully misrepresenting it. Waste of time communicating with you further.

The female toilet is for ‘female’ people. It is designated as female and therefore female people are right to expect that space to be for only female people.

Can you please show where you were elected as the spokesperson for all male transgender people? Because you just made a blanket statement on their behalf. And one that is clearly false.

A statement, by the way, that is easy to show as being false. Because conveniently, male people with transgender identities self publish their actions on line. Do you want us to fill the thread with videos and photos of male people doing the exact thing that you deny?

Any male person entering a space that is designated as being female single sex only is violating the boundaries of the female people using the space. Sure, some female people are ok with those male people being there. However, those female people’s consent doesn’t over ride other female people’s non-consent.

HTH

And let me know if you want to see the links to self published content of male people with transgender identities doing the exact thing you deny happens.

Transwomen clearly aren't women.

You know that.

Why lie about something so obvious?

What is a 'victimisation' when it's a home? 😵‍💫

trans women are male

that’s is a fact

and many women do not want to be around males in female only spaces because so many males are violent and they do not warn us they are going to be violent so just their presence can make us uncomfortable

females should not have to feel wary/uncomfortable in female only spaces

the issue is male violence not females wanting to remain feeling safe

Well, they are given that they have no legal right to be there and the law explicitly states that they shouldn't be there.

Once someone has already shown a disregard for the law, no one else can judge how far they will take that.

Transwomen are women and aren't acting threateningly by just going into the toilet they feel safest in

Hth

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/#:~:text=Transgender%20people%20are%20over%20four,at%20UCLA%20School%20of%20Law.

Sure. Transwomen aren't at risk and transpeople just mean "someone was mean to me" when they say they are at risk of violence

Only because they have, as a community, redefined words as 'literal violence'.

You think men never get raped?

And the rapists always know who a female is.

People have two legs. Some people are only born with one leg. Something went wrong either in utero or once born. They are still a person.

And the 'female community’ are far more likely to be raped than the trans community as a whole. just saying.

Is this a wind up?
Funny.😆

I am glad that you feel that women and girls can challenge someone who is acting in an intimidating or inappropriate way.

That is really important.

Because any male person who enters into a female single sex space in the UK, understanding that it is likely to cause some women and girls to be distressed by their presence is acting in a way that is intimidating. Particularly, if that male person knows what the Supreme Court stated in its judgement.

It does not have to be an act of violence to be one that is considered intimidation. The simple act of entering a space that excludes you as a person (ie. the use of you is a general use) is one of intimidation.

Knowingly violating the boundaries of women and children is not a neutral act and is in fact one that seems shared by numerous male people who post images and videos of themselves entering female single sex spaces online. The act of posting these is further intimidation in addition to the first action.

No male person above the age of 8 years old should be accessing female single sex provisions. The male people who are accessing these provisions are ones who clearly have no right to be there. The simple access of that provision changes that provision to mixed sex.

It's been defined perfectly clearly.

If you can't understand that - your education is lacking.

Has your body developed along a path to make eggs or sperm. Very simple.

We have defined it. If you can't read and understand it, that's on you. Every mammal, including humans, knows who's male and who's female amongst the other members of their species, for obvious biological reasons. In recent times scientists have discovered a lot of fascinating detail about how bodies develop as either female or male and how that affects the individual. But we aready knew the key bits before then. How could we possibly not do? Our species would have died out long ago otherwise.

The only thing that makes an individual male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, is biology. We then have to navigate through life in whichever sex we find ourselves. The world is organised for male humans, unfortunately, although we've made some inroads in the last century or so to try to move closer to a position where women are not seen as a weird, over-complicated and yet at the same time inferior version of men, but as equals - different in some key respects, but entitled to equal opportunities and rights. There are very few things which women can't do. Being female doesn't mean having a less powerful brain, but it does mean having less physical strength and having to cope with a female reproductive system, whether we actually reproduce or not. This is one reason why we have separate accommodations for the female sex. Another is male violence and the unfortunate fact that almost all sexual predators and fetishists are male. Women and girls have a right to safety and privacy when we are vulnerable.

A human is categorised into either of two sex categories based on how their body is formed around producing either of the two different sizes of gametes.

It is about the formation of that individual's body, not the successful production of those gametes. Whether a person's body produces, ever produced or will ever produce that particular gamete is not relevant in the categorisation of their sex class.

I am a woman because of biology

meaning of woman - an adult female human being

meaning of female - the sex that ovulates and can carry offspring

now my body may or may not actually be able to achieve the above and if not this may be down to medical issues but that is what my body due to biology should be able to, not my mind not my feelings but biology

@DoctorRoseReturns - I think you need to read it again, slowly. In particular: “Even if something goes wrong…”, which means even if these abilities aren’t realised, because we all know fertility isn’t a given for either sex.

You also haven’t addressed the question: what about people who do not have the cognitive ability to understand sex, or are temporarily incapacitated (coma, for example), are they neither male or female? How about babies?

Saying you’re a woman because ‘you just know’ is hardly a coherent, valid, argument and luckily it’s not taken seriously by the majority - and the law.