To choose convenience over facilities for 3 month old starting nursery?

Convenience as long as they don't compromise on care which it sounds like they don't.

They don't need facilities or a curriculum at that age.

I'm telling you I come from a background where people are either staying at home parents or go straight back to work but I'm also telling you what I felt with newborns a d therefore what I did. Also what studies show.

You wouldn't see it that way if you lived in a country where it is totally normal to go back to work when your child is three months old though. This is what I am trying to explain. It's entirely cultural.

I definitely found that both my children benefited from nursery well before the age of 2. It was useful seeing the contrast between my son and my daughter in that respect, even if I wish my son could have skipped the childminder stage and gone straight to nursery like his sister did. The difference really was night and day for us.

In fact, I think the public authority responsible for early years care has come to the same conclusion because they put in place a system where the childminders can take their children to a public nursery once a month just so they get occasional exposure to different children and different toys.

Children with disabilities are actually higher priority for public nursery places than other children. I don't know about autism specifically but how often are children under the age of 2 diagnosed with autism? A child would be 2y8m at the very most when they start at nursery in France, and almost certainly well under 2 when the parent applies for a place. Children start school between 2y9m and 3y8m, and obviously public schools can't refuse to educate disabled children. Private schools might, I have no idea.

Children whose parents are on low incomes are also priority for public nursery places. Most of the parents at my children's nursery are very ordinary indeed. One mother who has a very high powered job has twins (having a multiple birth also put you up the list of priority).

I think the ratio in the baby room is 1:4 but it's been a while since I Iast had a child in the baby room so I'm not sure whether I'm remembering correctly. The staff are great, have a lovely bond with the kids, and they do lots of activities.

My son had a childminder before he got a place at nursery and she was lovely, kind and caring but it was just not as stimulating an environment. Both my children have really benefited from being around lots of other children and having organised activities every day. There was a limit to what the childminder could do, particularly having two children to look after who were on different nap schedules. She moved my son on to one nap a day when he wasn't really ready, purely because the other child who was 6 months older was on one nap a day, and if she hadn't done that they would never have been able to get out of the flat during the day. (At nursery there are always babies napping so they can respect the child's natural rhythm.) Even when they did get out, it was never anywhere exciting. Sometimes when I have an odd day off during the week I take my kids to the playground and seeing the childminders there always makes me so glad I managed to get both my kids into nursery.

Another point to make about nursery in France is that the timing isn't really within the parents' control. They take babies from 10 weeks old but mostly only in September. So children who start very young tend to be born around April/May/June. If they're born any later than June they aren't old enough for nursery in September and then they probably won't get a chance until the following year. My January baby started in September and that worked really well. So there probably aren't that many babies actually going to nursery at 3 months old, but more due to timing than anything else. Both the childminder and the nursery told me the settling in period is much easier when they start before 6 months because older babies tend to get much more separation anxiety.

Either way, most children here have been in some form of childcare since they were 3 or 4 months old because that's when the maternity pay runs out. And there just isn't the same cultural expectation that a woman just forgoes her income for upwards of 6 months every time she has a baby. (It would also be considered weird by most employers.) If you believe what you read on Mumsnet, you'd expect French children to be anxious, emotionally stunted and not properly attached to their parents. But it's simply not true.

I think it's helpful to put forward an alternative perspective on these threads, because it's not kind, or helpful, or in fact true, to tell a woman planning to return to work after three months that she is damaging her child.

I love nursery and aside from the full mat leave withe ach child have always worked and they've always gone to nursery. My eldest 1-2 was so hard for him but he found his stride at 2. (He's under paeds for various bits and awaiting ASD and ADHD full assessment to be fully honest) Youngest struggled the first month or 2 as a 1 yr old but then settled and again I'd say only really benefitted from age 2. Which I think backs upt he literature.

It's a balancing act like all parenting and the newborn stage with my eldest has been the hardest so far with either child. But that's because they need you so absolutely and all the time. While it was hard I didn't want to pass him off either. I have a career I've worked hard for and if I hadn't I might have stayed home longer.

I think what I'm saying is you can see both sides but I genuinely couldn't send a 12 week old to childcare unless it was life or death

She sounds great!

I of course meant close, high-quality care during the day within the childcare setting . I wasn't suggesting that these children don't receive this care at home!

Do you have links to the research/or a search term I could use to find the research showing that infants in France fare better in nursery than at home? I'd love to read it.

Do you think this is because nursery care is of such high quality? What are nurseries like in France? Staff ratio/type of staff etc.

Does the research account for other factors e.g. the economic situation of the parents using nursery v not using nursery? Or the type of children (I have read, but don't know if this is true, that French schools/childcare settings will exclude children with Autism/behavioural problems, for example)?

I'm in England but this is my experience too. Mine all started at 3 months and have no attachment issues but their nursery is high quality which is the most important part.

Not all childcare settings are made equal, including childminders.

I am in France.

It's funny that you think children who go to nursery don't have close, high-quality care.

My daughter has been in nursery since she was 8 months old. She's now 2.5 and we still co-sleep and breastfeed. She is very attached to me, her dad, brother and grandparents, ahead on all her milestones, speaks two languages and has loads of little friends at nursery.

That's really interesting. What country are you in?

I would have thought an infants need for close, high-quality care was universal.

Do you have any links to this research? Does it really say that children are better off in nurseries than at home from three months old?! That seems crazy to me!

The thing is, the research doesn't show that in my country.

So there's clearly a huge cultural bias.

Nearly everything people on Mumsnet believe about child raising is based on cultural norms, not any kind of empirical research.

I expect the kind of parenting classes you'd recommend would teach the same kind of shit about parenting that the NCT pregnancy classes teach about childbirth.

It sounds like you've found a great solution that works for you.

That doesn't change the fact that all research clearly shows that very small children (including three month old babies) fare better with small group, home-based care.

I don't doubt that there are many people who want nursery places and are disappointed when they don't get them. Again, this doesn't change the facts. As I said there are many, many parents who don't understand child development and have been miss-sold the idea that nursery is better for children than being cared for at home/by a single caregiver. This is why parenting classes/a little bit of background into child development for all new parents would be so beneficial.

LOL.

Mumsnet is wall-to-wall anti-nursery propaganda, usually posted by the same women who later on are to be found complaining about the cost of living/being financially abused by their partner because they took a long time out of work and never managed to get back in or earn more than a minimal salary.

Where I live there is absolutely no cultural expectation that women will take a long time off work to have children. Every year the local Facebook groups are full of women who are incredibly upset about not getting a place in nursery and having to use a childminder. I was one of them a few years ago and sent my son to a childminder before he eventually did get a place in nursery. My daughter got a place in nursery straight away due to sibling priority. The nursery has been far better for their development, without a doubt.

This is why it's so important that we have this conversation. For too long it's been avoided/actively shut down because of the risk of upsetting parents who HAVE to use nursery, so much so that people actually believe that their child is better of in a nursery than with them! It's a common post on the Parenting board.

All expectant parents should be offered a child development/parenting course imo. Get to grips with what is actually best, what the research supports. It's also far easier and more fun when you know a bit more about how they develop imo.

This is funny because the parents around where I live are all falling over themselves to get their babies into full time nursery because it is considered the best option by a country mile.

@NuffSaidSam- he was very happy from Day 1 thank you. And he had 2 parents who doted on him.

Of course not and no decent parent would choose poverty or resentment for their child if they had a choice. In the same way, you shouldn't choose full-time nursery for a baby if you have the choice. If you don't have that choice then your baby has to suck it up just like the kids living in poverty or with a resentful parent do. I don't think anyone can offer their child a perfect upbringing, but we can make the best choices available to us.

Babies and children are of course all different, but basic needs like being held/fed/changed and attended to quickly by a key caregiver will be the same for all children. Any sixteen week old baby would be better off with one caregiver in a home environment (unless the home environment is problematic of course).

I agree that some of the posts were totally inappropriate personal attacks on the OP but I do think it is okay (and not vile) for people to suggest alternatives to childcare when a baby is so young, as long as they do so whilst being mindful of the OP’s feelings.

I know hearing that as someone who either chose to do this or was forced to do this is uncomfortable, even very upsetting, but I think it is important to accept that in terms of a child’s developmental needs at that age, having one consistent primary attachment figure is the best option (unless that person is depressed or abusive). That’s an opinion based on science rather than emotion. That doesn’t mean everyone has to do it but I think in the world we currently live in, it is important to hold science above opinion, especially when it comes to the more vulnerable members of our society.

As I said, this is an incredibly emotive topic so I understand that people on both sides feel strongly about it. And my aim here is not to guilt any parents who have made those decisions or judge them for doing so - the world has made it incredibly hard to stay home for any period of time. But I do feel very strongly that child development should be understood and shouted about so maternity and paternity leave/pay and general support and celebration of parents is significantly improved and the focus isn’t on offering childcare earlier and earlier so mums can get back up work. I don’t think that’s a win for children.

Probably not in the child's interests to live In either poverty or be stuck at home with a resentful parent either.

Besides children are all people so consequently all different. Same as adults. There is no " one size fits all " scenario

It probably wasn't great. I'm sure your DC is thriving now, but it's not in a child's best interests to be in full time nursery at 16 weeks old (unless the home environment is problematic of course). We shouldn't be afraid to acknowledge that for fear of hurting people's feelings. It's an important conversation. The vast majority of us can't provide our DC with a perfect upbringing, so there is no shame in it, but it's unhelpful to pretend that it's an ideal set up. It isn't.

This thread really saddens me. So much clutching pearls. So much criticism of the OP. Many people use nurseries at such an early age. My DC went fulltime - that’s 8 to 4.30 M-F from 16 weeks. It was great. And they did far more than they would have done at home. DC nearly 29. Keep your vile opinions to yourselves.

She was asking for advice, I was giving her mine based on my experience of using childcare at a young age.

Absolute rubbish

Not everyone thinks so

But that's not OPs situation which is what I was reacting to. It very much read like it is far from a financial necessity

Yep, I'd have had to leave my kob