Gender swap situation

No child wants to be left isolated in school. That would be the most damaging outcome for her.

She said she wants to do this as it's all making her uncomfortable but they are all in the same friend group and it's not a big school so she doesn't have much of a choice.

There is actually nothing in the OPs posts to suggest that her daughter would be 'going against the group' if she decided she couldn't go along with what her friend requires of her. The OP has given us no indication at all what the other children think about it, other than to say they forget to say Ron at times too.
There's something that really doesn't sit right about adults issuing dire warnings to children that they will lose their friendships if they don't fully meet the requirements of trans people. It's often projection based on what the adult in questions thinks should be the case, and has little basis in the reality of the norms and behaviour within the teen group in question.

That really is what it boils down to, isn't it? A belief in something that is demonstrably not true. I don't think it's new and icky. I do think it's dangerous for women, children and vulnerable people, and I won't go along with it.

Other people can believe what they want about themselves, but no one has to go along with it. I don't affirm my schizophrenic friend's delusions, and really, it's not different, is it?

You believe people can change sex don’t you?

😬

men wearing women’s clothing is not new.

asking people to pretend they are women and act in the role play or else is new.

AGP is icky yes!

It's not the same as just changing name or using a nickname because of the pronoun change as well.

We expect someone we refer to as "he" to be male, so if a female person indicates that they want to be referred to as "he" they're signalling that they see themselves as male expect everyone to believe that they are male.

We can go along with this and use "he" for that person out of a sense of support or friendship, but we can't force ourselves to believe that this person is now male. "He" is then happy if as far as "he" knows, "his" friends all see him as male. Except when they don't. Because every time someone slips up and uses "she" it becomes obvious that they don't believe it. It's not just compelled speech, it's compelled belief.

Not 'icky'. A false representation of reality.

I don't think anyone is advocating 'taking a stand' necessarily. Rather backing away and distancing herself from a friendship that has become uncomfortable and problematic for her.

Surely you would not advocate the OP's daughter to maintain this friendship on terms that make her feel she's walking on eggshells the whole time?

Sure, the difference is very clear - one is an example of compelled speech that you're comfortable with, and the other is new and icky.

One is a name change specific to a person, names are chosen and can be changed. The other is asking people to deny reality, sex is immutable not chosen can’t be changed,

its not hard to understand the difference.

It's not just about "getting used to it". There is a whole emotional dimension for everyone involved, not just the individual who is making the change. It can be painful for other people who are expected to make that change. At present UK society (including many schools and most of the advice that is given to schools) has swung to a point where we label all those feelings "transphobic" and dismiss or condemn them and we easily condemn anyone who expresses them as a bully or transphobe. That's not right either and that's part of the dilemma that the OP's DD has to face.

So one is a polite social convention when you call someone by the term they prefer, and the other is compelled speech where you're being strong-armed into calling someone by the term they prefer.

Thanks for clarifying!

Yeah but she's got two gay daughters, so 🤷🏻‍♂️

The political bods on here need to remember that OP has said this is her daughter's whole friendship group.

If her daughter goes against the group, it's all of her friends against her.

She's got to be pragmatic. Regardless of her personal beliefs, standing up to this would mean losing all of her school friends in a small school with few others her age.

I appreciate we all have differing opinions on this but asking a teenager to take a stand against her whole social network isn't going to happen. This isn't a theoretical situation. It's her life.

It absolutely is compelled because there is the fear of the unacceptable reaction when you 'get it wrong'. Plus it's often accompanied by a desire to treat someone differently despite being told they are 'still the same person'. They are but the terms of the relationship have been changed. If they become conditional on anything the balance of power has changed - it's no longer an equal relationship.

It also affects your own identity. If are related to someone, that changes the context in conversations. You relate to others based on the make of your family unit. People ask you if you have brothers/sisters or have sons/daughters to relate.

As a friend at school it will affect dynamics in other ways which might be hard to handle. There's the pressure to not just affirm but also to be the champion. And if you don't believe it you can't fake it.

It is not a neutral act.

We need to keep saying this over and over again.

Nope.
Nobody is forced to indulge someone else's fantasy. 🤔

This is silly. 'Compelled speech' in these sorts of contexts is generally taken to mean, 'I object to being strong-armed into calling someone I clearly know is male, she/her' or vice versa. Whereas calling your teacher 'Mrs Smith' rather than Debbie if you know her first name, is a polite societal convention and Mrs Smith IS one of the ways she's known by. No falsehood there, just a school rule/politeness. Calling a female child with male pronouns, or vv, is rather different.

There needs to be understanding on both sides here.
You should always refer to someone as what they ask to be referred to. It's really common for kids to change to a nickname or slightly different version of their name as they get older, and its very common for family to call someone by their original name. Eg Samantha with your family, Sam with your friends. It's not OK to ignore this. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or understand it or not.

The person changing their name needs to understand that its quite a tricky habit to break and as long as its not done in a judgemental way or deliberately, there needs to be some understanding that it takes a while to get used to the new name

TW simply want to live their lives within their own experience . In a manner that is comfortable, tolerable and authentic for them.

And why is engaging in a complicated pretendy fantasy which involves becoming a medical patient with complex needs and negotiating difficult social relationships and legal structures which keep constantly reminding you that it all is really only a pretendy fantasy, any better for “the person” than just accepting that you’re not a woman?

@Tandora — undoubtedly some men “transition” because it’s a sexual fetish, rather than anything to do with “dysphoria” or believing they’re born in the wrong body or whatnot. How do these men fit into your schema? Do we all have to use “language respectful to the person” towards men acting out a sexual fetish in public?

I would hope the therapist will give Sally/Ron some support to maintain existing friendships. You can't just dump a whole new you on your friends and then get angry when their image still includes the old you. You have to be as kind and understanding to your old friends as you want them to be to you.

Sally/Ron's new school friends may get a lot of fun out of affirming Sally/Ron's new identity. It's interesting and fashionable and it's no skin off their nose, they have no shared history to lose. Unfortunately that could be very sad for Sally/Ron if s/he ever changes her mind and has lost DD's friendship and her new friendships are all conditional on this new identity.

Which doesn't help your DD. Maybe DD should be looking to build up other friendships and interests outside school and be polite but keep a safe distance while this plays out.

I can 'recognise myself' as royalty. It's a shame I can't compel the rest of the world to affirm that for me, though.

Can you understand the female experience of needing and wanting single sex spaces?

Can you understand that requiring others to deny reality is compelled speech.

Language is fundamental for a civilized society. Words have defined meanings.

you still can’t define “living as a woman”

'Recognising yourself as a woman' doesn't mean you actually are a woman.

Requiring wrong sex pronouns is compelled speech. You know that.

Expecting to be referred to as a woman when you're not is also compelled speech. You know that too.

What you'll find on MN threads is refusal to pretend that men can become women. That is all. If people can't live in reality, that is their problem to deal with, no anyone else's.

Oh, and to pick up on your response to my comment that other people recognise us as women and treat us differently from men. You draw a parallel there with the TW experience because TW 'recognise THEMSELVES as women' and that influences how they act, as though this is what I was saying. It was not.
For a woman, being recognised as the female sex begins at birth and continues whether we like it or not. People treat us as 'not men' and this is much more often than not to our detriment. The stereotypical behaviour patterns you observe have been imposed and taught to us because other people see us as women (because we are). Which is the opposite to what you're describing, which is the deliberate adopting of behaviour patterns you associate with women because you want people to recognise you in the way you percieve yourself.