To be very anxious about the assisted dying bill?

I watched my DSis die last year. For a lot of the time she was in agony, despite expert palliative care in a hospice, the pain killers were just not enough. One night a few days before she died, she pleaded with me to do something. There was nothing I could do bar request more meds for her. I believe that if she had been at home she would have instructed us to make her a cocktail to end it ( we are all HCP) and I probably would have “assisted” her.

This is what it means, to make it possible for someone to end their life when there is nothing else that can be done and they are overwhelmed by the pain.

At one point she was having serious levels of painkillers but the effect was wearing off within 10mins or having no effect. It is difficult to describe watching a loved one in so much pain. Every breath was agony. And it is a myth that they can give big doses of painkillers thanks to Shipman. It is the cancer that kills them not the medication.

Finally she slipped into unconsciousness and passed away peacefully, but the previous 3 weeks were brutal.

Unfortunately for my DSis the assisted dying bill would have been useless, she was diagnosed and died in under 2 months. But having witnessed my DM death so me years ago I am certain that she would have been keen to die a little while before things deteriorated. She made our other DSis and me promise to be there to support her DH who had not experienced a loss due to cancer at such close quarters. She relied on us heavily to advocate for her and everytime I bullied the staff into giving her more painkillers she hugged me. It was heartbreaking hearing her so upset and crying out for me when I had slipped out of her room to use the loo. She was a very independent person both physically and emotionally and it was so difficult to see her frightened and in pain.

So no, my biggest anxiety is that my DS may have to go through this experience with me.

Unfortunately some diseases mean that there is no comfort in death. My Dad died in excruciating agony, no amount of morphine could touch it. The NHS support he received was incredible but they just couldn’t get his pain managed despite their best efforts. He had bone cancer.

Same.

My lovely Dad died in absolute agony despite an amazing hospice team trying to bring his pain under control. He was begging to die.

An assisted death/medical aid in dying just 7 days prior would have saved him and us such a terrible trauma.

It can’t come soon enough and I truly believe that anyone who had witnessed what I did would feel the same.

That actually reads more like a threat to me- you don't have to choose assisted death, but don't expect the NHS to make an effort to help you to have a comfortable death if you don't.

It's obvious to me that when it's brought in palliative care and disability support - such as they are now - will get funding cut and cut. Why waste money on these things when the responsible thing to do is die now and avoid being more of a burden on the state?

I am not sure it is clear what doctors are thinking my daughter currently in palliative has not made up her minds. The option peoole should be given is dying in their own home surrounded by loved ones. This rest on us all being able to accept we and our loved ones will dye and may mean choosing quality over quantity.

Sone doctors struggle to say we cannot recommend further treatment or if we resuscitate you you would be unlikely to recover enough to ever leave intensive care.

Often she cannot send people home as they might die in the transport the answer is not to take them in in the first place. Sometimes families for the best of reasons insist on procedures which cause the patient pain and distress. That extra round of chemo may gain a extra month but the treatment makes that and the proceeding months awful.

I am anxious about getting dementia. My granddad had dementia and it was awful to witness. This law wouldn't cover dementia.

There’s absolutely no need to be ‘assessed for months ’. If someone is ready to die, one can rest assured they’ve been thinking about it for more than ‘months’.

There’s no need for state control over such an individual decision.

The UK doesn’t have to go down that route if it doesn’t want to.

People talk about the slippery slope as if any far fetched proposal is inevitable. When the prospect of gay marriage was being discussed there were viewpoints that this was the top of the slippery slope where the end point was it being legal to marry your pets. Has this happened?

It’s a different perspective when one of your children has a learning disability, and you see time and time again in A & E that many HCPs have the tacit attitude that NHS resources are wasted on people with learning disabilities, as it is.

DD1’s GP sent us a DNACPR form to sign for her every year, during Covid. She was in her 20s and apart from epilepsy, she is as strong as an ox. She’s never had flu, and is immune to the norovirus. The form also said, if she did get ill; did we want her to go to hospital or stay at the care home for “comfort care”! Nobody sent us a form like that for her twin sister or either of us! The Parliamentary Human Rights Committee discussed this form in July 22. They said a DNACPR should never be conflated with decisions about care. Inadequate medication can be regarded as a form of torture.

So, it’s quite clear when push comes to shove, what doctors’ thinking is.

Yes, I didn’t see it myself; but my mother told me my father died a horrendous death from cancer. I felt sick just hearing about it, and was in a state of shock for days. They were promised hospice care at home; but got no such thing.

IMO, everybody should have the option of dying in a hospice with proper palliative care - and this act gives the NHS the cheap way out. How much is a hospice bed per day? AD is bound to be much cheaper!

@bipbopdo so your big worry is a slippery slope

I do understand that and I respect your view.

For me, I have known people who would have wanted to do it and died in terrible pain. I don't think they should be prevented because government can take any power to extremes.

You've given the figure of one in 20. In terms of people who might want to benefit, I don't find that too high.

I do see the issues with Canada, but I think we've got to work hard to make sure that doesn't happen

The current state of things isn't particularly desirable either. I do agree that palliative care needs to be improved but some people suffering spreads beyond that.

Then you get the blurred morality of perhaps giving them a higher dose of something that might kill them.

and of course, some people will say that medical professionals can't be exempt from blame in those cases because then you might get a random murderer around. I don't think we should be measuring everything in terms of Harold Shipman. There's a balanced way to learn the lesson.

TheFinePrintess What a horrible thing to say. Please remember that people suffering from the cruel disease of dementia are human beings who deserve to be treated with kindness and respect. My parents both suffered from Alzheimer’s and they were never “physically & mentally abusive” to their loved ones. Saying “shit & piss dealt with by strangers because I’m in nappies” is such a disrespectful and awful thing to say. Please think carefully before you post in future.

It's unfortunate that neither side of the discussion really acknowledges that you have to accept some sort of collateral no matter what you do.

However I do think this legislation is very overdue now. Ultimately on the one hand the problem of people dying agonising and undignified deaths over weeks and months is very real and the risk of coercion is hypothetical and its scale is poorly evidenced.

The principle of the Bill is also entirely consistent with being able to move a patient from curative care to palliative care or provision of abortion, both of which involve some risk of coercion but would be unthinkable to criminalise.

I do also think that the safeguards are exceptionally strong, certainly compared to other jurisdictions and I really don't know what could feasibly be added which wouldn't make it a nightmare of red tape for people already going through one of the worst experiences of their lives.

Thank you so much. I didn’t know they existed.

I support it. I worked in a hospice for 15 years and whilst we did our absolute best to alleviate suffering I have still seen loads of people die horrible deaths.

I’m not shaming anyone. It’s a fact that the only option now is to prepare for the possibility of a long and drawn out death for yourself or a loved one. Assisted dying gives another option. You don’t have to take it. It’s a choice. Where is the shame in that? I don’t want a long and drawn out death but if a loved one did, I would respect their choice and be by their side if they wanted me to be.

Pegasos

This is what worries me. In the case of the Paralympian who was told that she could have assisted suicide, various officials have said that the Canadian guidelines were broken - but no one would have known but for the fact that the Paralympian held firm and protested about what had happened to her.

No point in getting on that plane. You have to have capacity and six months or less for Dignitas, they wouldn’t accept you.

It’s not just a case of anyone suicidal or terminally ill marching (or being wheeled) in and dying straight off. You have to be assessed for months.

Regardless of the impact that this law would have on others?
And in the knowledge that there is no guarantee that AD is painless?

I wouldn't have the wherewithal to end it safely and painlessly under medical supervision. I want that choice to be available to me if I request it.

Legal abortion has an impact on people as well whether or not it's the choice they make. But someone not wanting to live in a world where someone else can legally make a different choice from theirs doesn't feel like a valid reason to withhold that choice.

Even if that makes life more dangerous for the most vulnerable in society?
Even when you can already end your own life at any point you choose?