To be very anxious about the assisted dying bill?

The reasons animals can be put to death is not because we as humans have more empathy for them...it's because as a society we value them less than humans.

No but we put measures in place to reduce the risk... driving tests, speed limits, seat belts.

So far, from what I've heard, the assisted dying bill does not have enough measures in place that would make me feel comfortable with it.

Yeah I have no idea why we won’t allow animals to endure pain and suffering but are happy for humans to. When humans are more important than animals at the end of the day. Seems pretty sick when you really think about it.

@Comedycook

we don’t ban cars on the chance that there might be a car accident.
we shouldn’t deny those in suffering the opportunity to end that suffering if they wish just on the hypothetical basis that it could go wrong.

@EasternEcho

we don’t ban cars on the chance that there might be a car accident.

we shouldn’t deny those in suffering the opportunity to end that suffering if they wish just on the hypothetical basis that it could go wrong.

It's hopefully not something you will ever have to consider using.

But having watched my Grandfather die of bone cancer. I welcome it.

We give dogs more dignity than we do people.

I'd feel less concerned if the staff involved were to be trained in coercions to help prevent abuse, and they had been more upfront about the type of drugs that would be approved.

The Bill hasn't been updated on the Parliament website yet but I just gave the Hansard a quick skim and an amendment went through on the nod on Friday that explicitly prevents a person qualifying as terminally ill if it's the result of refusing food and drink. This was specifically to prevent anorexia sufferers falling in scope.

I also can't see the point you are suggesting in the RPS statement anywhere.

I'm really sorry that you're feeling so anxious about it but, for me, the Bill is a positive move and I fully support it.

Both my parents died in 2023, months apart. My DM had COPD, heart failure and pneumonia. I watched her basically suffocate to death, thank god she was in hospital and on palliative care - but it was horrendous.

My DF ended up exactly how he didn't want to end up, and I know he would have wanted to have died months prior. He had an infection and got delirium, unfortunately it never lifted. So 4 months in hospital and then 5 months in the most amazing care home. But he had no clue who he was, where he was, he didn't know that DM had died, doubly incontinent and bed bound.

I really don't want that for me, my dc's or anone else for that matter. My dog was treated better than my parents.

Right. We oppose the death penalty based on the chance that a mistake might be made, and it's not beyond the realm of possibility that coercian, mental health at time of decision, or just plain cost cutting in the health system may come into play. It might be a slippery slope. But should the really suffering be let to suffer based on this...I don't know the answer.

We can keep on talking about choice...but the whole crux of the argument is based on the fear that some people will choose assisted dying after being abused or coerced. Choice is fine if it the person making it is making a totally free choice...do we think there won't be mistakes made if it's brought in? It seems inevitable to me that there will be.

Their body, their choice.

Same applies to abortion. If you don't agree with it, don't get one.

If you don't agree with assisted dying, don't opt for it.

I think if you developed a terminal illness however and had to live with the suffering, knowing it would only get worse and your loved ones would watch your horrible decline until death, you'd change your mind.

It's right that it's expanded beyond terminal illness also. Every single person has the right to decide when to end their life.

I put my lovely boy to sleep in October, he slipped away peacefully - we had exhausted all medical options, no amount of money could save his life but we could save him from pain.

If someone wants to take other people's choices away I can make any response I choose.

It's far more unpleasant to expect someone else to die in agony against their wishes because you disagree with AD than to offend someone's feelings on SM. I don't think either choice is superior - making it up again. I think AD would be preferable to me in those circumstances and that having a choice is vastly superior.

Your concerns are not being played out. You're just misrepresenting disagreement as coercion.

Wouldn't this apply to those with mental disorders linked to physical health such as anorexia though? A person refusing to eat will face death within a period of time, but the disease itself is a mental one that has the possibility of being addressed. This is just one example of the kind of real and prevalent situations that the mental health professionals are worried about I think.

Look how benefit claimants and/or disabled people are spoken about in our society in terms of money...scroungers and such like. I can envision a time where those who don't choose assisted dying will be demonised as leeches draining the NHS coffers...how selfish to want to live for an extra few months at the expense of the hardworking tax payer.

My father died on Friday after battling cancer. His last 2 days were horrific, both for himself and my sister and myself. He couldn’t communicate, eat or drink. His heart racing then dropping. He was hallucinating.

I wouldn’t treat my dog like that. I can only hope he didn’t know what was happening.
Anyone who is unsure of the assisted dying should listen to families and friends who’ve been through what we have. Myself and sister have also been here before as we cared for our mother in her last 6 weeks which was just as traumatic.
The sooner the UK has assisted dying the better.

Surely if someone doesn't want to choose assisted dying the only response is to accept that without comment....it's pretty unpleasant to say, well then you'd better be prepared for a long painful death...as if one choice is superior. Some people might want it and others won't. But my overall point is the concerns I have, are already coming into play on this thread.

Stop misrepresenting people because they don't agree with you.

No-one is belittling you or shaming you. You will have your choice. You want to take away other people's choices.

As for palliative care it doesn't work for everyone as I know from a close friend. Also it is not just the pain of a drawn out death it's the indignity, confusion, loss of everything that gives you joy,

Having recently witnessed my DSis death in a brilliant hospice, even the very best palliative treatment is brutal. It’s not a pleasant sitting round the bed while they quietly slip away. Well the last few hours are close to that, but the weeks leading up to that point are cruel and unnecessary.

My DSis had spread to her brain and was at times confused, frightened and paranoid. She would become distressed if someone wasn’t with her 24/7. If you had known my DSis you would have realised how out of character this was. She had always been an incredibly independent and self advocating individual. She had survived breast cancer at 34 and then died of an unrelated cancer. It was so cruel.

We were provided with a proper bed in her room throughout her stay so that one of us could sleep alongside her every night.
Nights were the worst when she was unsettled and managed only 30mins of sleep between meds.

It is a myth that palliative care of cancer patients, even at its best , confers a dignified and peaceful death. Dementia is a very different beast.

I disagree. The terminal agitation is a reflection of the pain the dying person is going through. Having worked in healthcare for years dealing with pain you assess the level of pain by how loud a patient complains. The agitation is not the usual whinging that accompanies the moderate pain levels many of us experience but is beyond the severe pain where people are often very still, breathing shallowly and trying to minimise any movement. The body is shutting down, and with it the balance of normal blood levels resulting in all sorts of problems.

The agitation is more of an unconscious base reaction to pain where the body takes over any conscious control mechanism. It is often more obvious when they are semi conscious. The animal like sounds a person makes while in this phase cause a deep reaction from those around to want to try and remove the pain. Sedation allows them to sleep a little.

So yes sedation is for those observing but it is a gut reaction to the loved one’s agony. You just want them to be at peace and out of pain. It is definitely not for your own benefit. You would dearly love for them to be awake until the end so you can spend quality time with them but usually they slip into unconsciousness a day or so before they die.

I am also concerned about this bill.
But OP please try not to get too anxious about it.
My DD was very seriously ill with Anorexia and is thankfully, after a long bumpy journey, recovered. However she would have absolutely asked to use assisted dying at the time if it was open to her, both her body and mind were in a terrible state and we were warned by doctors about her prognosis. I can remember at the time listening to a newsreport about a young woman in the Netherlands suffering with anorexia who chose and was allowed to use assisted dying. It haunted me.
There was a news article about about anorexia and assited dying in the Telegraph at the weekend.
So it does scare and worry me that like in Canada and Netherlands the criteria will be expanded the rules will be relaxed, it's inevitable really.
The safeguards have already been weakened from what was originally suggested.
No one wants to die a painful death. Personally I think 2 doctors making an assessment and giving morphine at last days/hours to avoid pain and distress so you can slip away is the best option but clearly Harold Shipman put a stop to that.
PP mentioned dementia but the bill won't help people with dementia, and tbh my mum, who is, at end stage, is now not distressed or agitated but content and sleeps a lot.
During the agitation, distressing stage she still had an more happy moments than distressing ones.
It won't help people with Parkinsonism, MND, Ms etc.
I think it is mainly intended for people with cancer but I really think money would be better used for more hospice places and better palliative care.
And of course timely diagnosis and access to treatments.
There will be vulnerable people who will be caught up in this bill.

This sounds very similar to my experience.
When my parents died at home in the late 1980’s a few months apart (that was a fun year…) the district nurse came and administered a drip and they didn’t wake up again. Quiet and peaceful.
My Gran died in a nursing home 3 years ago, screaming and shouting for a good 6 weeks with the pain and agitation. Although the home had the drugs there on the premises there was no district nurse to admister them. When they did eventually turn up, if my Gran was asleep from exhausting herself from fighting the hallucinations she was having, off the nurse went without giving any drugs and as soon as she woke up it all started again. It was horrific.
There is definitely a real reluctance to administer drugs and shorten life. when I questioned why they couldn’t just give it when she was quiet, “well it’s addictive” FFS, she’s nearly 100, bed bound for the last 2ish years, I don’t think her getting dependant on it at that stage was a big issue…

We need much better palative care available to all that want it. But we also need the option of AD for those that’d rather check out a few weeks earlier and avoid the whole unpleasantness.

A patient whose chosen to die at home waiting an unacceptable length of time to be administered medication - 2/3 hours because there’s only 1 nurse whose palliative trained on for a large team of district nurses - culture and staff retention of nurses.

This. Except in our case it wasn't 2/3 hours, it was a whole weekend because our loved one hit 'terminal agitation' on a Friday night and no-one could come because it was the weekend. They came on Monday. It was horrific for everyone.

@Fiver555

But you need to look at why palliative care is falling short, that’s why I asked what ideas you had. There’s been a lot of sweeping generalisations about the problems with palliative care on here, and it would be good to unpick where some of those problems have come from and what would actually solve them rather than using assisted dying as a catch all.

E,g. Lack of access to a hospice bed for specialist pain management and dying in pain - funding Lots of beds closed either temporarily or permanently. They are 1/3 nhs money and 2/3 charity.

Being discharged from hospital without anticipatory medications or equipment because they need the bed / a referral to a palliative care CNS wasn’t made - perhaps being made aware of this patient from paramedics trying to sort them - likely cause ward culture, staffing and pressure on beds (bed pressures comes down to money - fewest inpatient beds in europe)

A patient whose chosen to die at home waiting an unacceptable length of time to be administered medication - 2/3 hours because there’s only 1 nurse whose palliative trained on for a large team of district nurses - culture and staff retention of nurses.

I know full well that people can have awful deaths and there are huge problems but saying AD is a catch all from all the problems there are, and blaming one organisation is simply unacceptable.