To be very anxious about the assisted dying bill?

No-one would be coercing your mum

How do we know this?

100% support

How do you fix palliative care when medics refuse to provide enough drugs to properly alleviate pain as it may hasten death?

It’s a catch 22 surely. Can’t fix palliative care without (involuntary) euthanasia. Can’t have (voluntary) euthanasia without effective palliative care.

Fix palliative care first, then look at AD. That would at least allow people to make an informed choice, rather than just give up because the NHS can’t do end-of-life care reliably. I am in favour of AD in principle, but this bill does not do enough to mitigate the risk of coercion, including medical coercion, to which the disabled and victims of abuse are significantly more vulnerable.

No-one is giving the state the right to end people's lives. This bill is about giving people the right to end their own lives, assisted by the clinicians, to avoid unendurable pain and indignity when they are already at the end of their lives. No-one would be coercing your mum or handing her the pills.

The doctors caring for the patient and the panel making the decision are the safeguards.

You are naive if you think palliative care always works even when it is offered, which it often isn't. It sounds like your mum has decent quality of life right now. How would you feel if she was on an ordinary ward screaming with pain and doubly incontinent with only prolonged death to look forward to. More importantly, how would she feel.

The people against the bill have had years to get palliative care improved, it's only now you're concerned? We always supported our local hospice yet they never took my dad or grandad. The people saying their loved one died in comfort at a hospice honestly don't realise how lucky they are. Although unless they were keeping a 24 hour vigil I'm not sure how they can be sure how comfortable it is.

I don't think anyone thinks it's awful, just that needing to be sedated to the point of unconsciousness because of being in so much pain seems pointless to most of us. None of my relatives were offered sedation so I don't know exactly how it works but if it was me I'd just opt for assisted dying and say goodbye to my family whilst actually conscious.

@Vinvertebrate - I'm so pleased to hear about the positive experience your mum is having, despite a terminal diagnosis. It's good to know this happens sometimes!

@Zimunya i suspect it’s a postcode lottery, like so much of the NHS. My DM has been on palliative care since 2023 after being given 6 months to live. She is leading a full and active life despite a terminal diagnosis, but AD is of course cheaper. I fear that patients in that position will be steered towards ending lives that would have been enhanced by the right end of life care being available.

A related point is that the availability of assisted dying may adversely impact the quality and availability of palliative care, which can truly enhance the lives of the terminally ill.

@Vinvertebrate - the sad reality is that in so many cases palliative care is appalling or non-existent.

who does want to be a burden? By that point your quality of life will be pretty non existent so why should they be forced to go on existing? Because it makes you uncomfortable that they have autonomy over themselves and their life? Nah, not a good enough reason.

The point that seems to have sailed over your head is that the current law does not do enough to avert the risk of medical and familial coercion, both of which would call into question whether the individual concerned is truly exercising autonomy.

A related point is that the availability of assisted dying may adversely impact the quality and availability of palliative care, which can truly enhance the lives of the terminally ill.

Personally, although I agree with the principle of AD, I am uncomfortable with giving the (routinely incompetent, failing, and unable to even deliver babies safely) British state the right to end someone's life. Wes Streeting - who is in a position to know what the practicalities would mean - apparently agrees, because he voted against it.

@Comedycook

Nope, still not grounds to take away that choice from those want it and need it.

Ok that's your life and your family. Now imagine a different family...let's say a greedy grasping adult child in financial difficulty who is desperate to get their hands on their inheritance asap. Can you imagine them telling their terminally ill vulnerable parent, oh you don't want to be a burden to us do you mum? I know you'd hate to have us have to look after you wouldn't you? You know I have so much to cope with already and so on and so on. And by it's very nature coercive, abusive behaviour is often subtle and flies under the radar. This is one potential pitfall I can see.

@Vinvertebrate

who does want to be a burden? By that point your quality of life will be pretty non existent so why should they be forced to go on existing? Because it makes you uncomfortable that they have autonomy over themselves and their life? Nah, not a good enough reason.

I agree in principle, but in our crappy NHS (where you’re typically left to languish on a trolley until another patient dies or is discharged to free a bed) the scope for medical coercion is huge. Good palliative care can make a huge difference to quality of life, but I fear the availability of assisted dying reduces the likelihood of that type of care being offered or even funded.

Family coercion is also a risk I suspect - granny won’t want to be a burden, etc.

I totally agree with @LillyPJI
Not to mention that I'd rather my money went to my kids than to a care home.

I agree. I would hate to be a burden. Even if my children insisted that I wasn't, I wouldn't want them to have to feed me, wash me, put me on the toilet, watch me slowly deteriorate or suffer, visit me in some depressing care home or hospital...I'd rather die quickly and let them get on with their lives.

MIL currently feels like a burden - no one has made her feel like that - she can do little for herself and feels totally miserable, she is incredibly fed up with living. So, realistically, how do we make this great life that she's supposed to be living happen? She has no interest in anything, won't leave the house - just sits on the sofa waiting to die. She's on antidepressants and is surrounded by a loving family.
I plan to refuse all medication except pain relief to hasten my death if I reach my late 80s, I'm not hanging around for a slow, painful death - modern medicine has a lot to answer for.

I was actually responding to a poster who asked if sedation is for the person dying or their relatives. My late DF was sedated before his death, and I didn't find sitting with him while he was in that state to be as awful as so many seem to think it is.

I live in a country which already has assisted dying, so the option is there if I ever required it.

I'm not in the UK but I'm pretty sure that this is not going to be available to elderly or disabled people unless they have a terminal illness and only a few months to live.

Such dramatics!

I think this is very interesting.
I wonder how many people commenting have been in truly horrendous pain for a long time and medics struggling to manage that.
Add that to fear of death hurtling towards you and your loved ones watching you being tortured as if they were in a bare room with a single bare bulb watching you being punched, whipped, your nails being pulled off screaming, broken and in extreme distress. That's how my df died I and he had to endure that pantomime for two weeks

He was afraid, in pain and slowly drowning whilst hungry and thirsty.

I want that to stop immediately now. It's beyond barbaric

Not me. I would rather be dead.

If my dog is at the end of life, I have will her her PTS. Keeping her sedated until she dies... who is that for? She will have no quality of life at all, so it is not for her. For me? To watch an unconscious being lie there until they die.... what for?

Why can we not have the same mercy for people... especially people who are asking for it.

Officially no. But bullied big time to "make the right choice"
Can totally see elderly and disabled people railroaded into "not being a burden"

Not my experience at all. They were willing to treat my grandmother even at the age of 97. She just decided not to as it wasn't guaranteed to work.

She also had a DNR put in place-completely her choice, no one suggested it or coerced her into it. After some bad experiences in hospital she decided not to go back there and could not be convinced by the pleading of both a doctor and my mother. The doctor really wanted her to go and get treatment. The elderly and vulnerable know what they want as much as anyone else.

@SapporoBaby they don't care about people killing themselves (in fact I've seen many suggesting people do just that) they just think people who aren't terminal will be forced to die when they don't want to. I'm not sure how, people have a very strong survival instinct-and those that are "terrified" it'll happen are the ones vehemently against this bill. Hard to imagine they'd ever be convinced to die even if doctors/family were trying to coerce people. Which of course we have no evidence would even happen.

I honestly think the issue will be the other way round with family unable to let go and trying to convince their loved one to "hang on just a bit longer" but maybe I have more faith in people than the ones apparently convinced their kids will want to off them for their money!