The US has bombed Fordow and other sites.

I would rather nor rely on Hamas either but the fact that Israel doesn’t let in journalists or independent observers limits our options. And I would rather have estimates from Hamas than the dead in Gaza going unreported to the outside world which I’m sure many would prefer.

It's a bit grim to try to brush over and justify the deliberate murder of tens of thousands of Palestinian children by telling someone to read a history book about other appalling massacres. It's chilling that you can make this sort of statement it such a blasé way.
It seems that, in your mind, Netanyahu and the Israelis can do exactly as they please, and you will continue to justify everything with your whataboutery.

By Netanyahu I mean him, as the prime minister for decades, and his cabinet and full goverment body.
I suppose the unilateral declaration of the State of Palestine and talks towards it will take the lead then. I do not think the boat has sailed to be lost in the horizon. I actually think it has docked in a port with more options. Only it will take time. But I do see the two States as the only interim way forward.
To be honest, the old map with Gaza as part of Egypt and the West Bank in Jordan made full geographical sense. And you would think that they have some cultural similarities. I wished they had stuck to it and made it work. But here we are ages later.

@MushMonster "But to get the one he represents in a full peaceful way to a better future, he cannot carry on denying one."

You talk as if it's Bibi's sole decision when it isn't

Israel’s parliament passed a resolution that overwhelmingly rejected the establishment of a Palestinian state, Israeli media reported. (July2024)
The resolution passed in the Knesset with 68 votes in favour and just nine against it.

They said that a Palestinian state would pose “an existential danger to the State of Israel and its citizens, perpetuate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and destabilize the region”.

The Palestinians had several chances to have their own state but rejected them all.

So it looks like that ship has sailed and the Palestinians only have themselves to blame for 'missing the boat'

I did not say he has to sort another State. That is the Palestinians job. But to get the one he represents in a full peaceful way to a better future, he cannot carry on denying one.

I know. I just think that option that he is pushing has zero chance of yielding anything but sorrow.

I never said I agreed with it. I was just outlining the possible reasons based on the principle of "My enemy's enemy is my friend".Maybe Bibi wants to "fight fire with fire".
All through history protagonists have taken up with some strange bedfellows to achieve a common goal.

"Israel is considered no risk at all, despite the crazy man and his friends in charge of the place and the fact that they will not allow any inspections?"

Maybe he isn't as "crazy" as you think ?

Putin hasn't allowed any inspections of Russia's program since Feb 2023, so why isn't anyone jumping up and down about that?

"Even worse, why is the genocide that has been taking place in Gaza entirely ignored by a number of posters who have commented repeatedly on this and other threads?"

Because there is no "genocide".

20,000 civilians dead is nothing for a conflict of this size.

Less than 1% of Palestinians have been killed in this conflict. That's frankly a miracle given the realities of urban warfare against an enemy that hides behind its own civilians.

Read a history book.

The Rwandan genocide involved the murder of hundreds of thousands of people in the span of one month--70% of the Tutsi population.

Sometimes called the "first genocide of the twentieth century", the Armenian genocide refers to the physical annihilation of all Armenian Christian people living in the Ottoman Empire from spring 1915 through autumn 1916. There were approximately 1.5 million Armenians living in the multiethnic Ottoman Empire in 1915. At least 664,000 and possibly as many as 1.2 million died during the genocide, either in massacres and individual killings, or from systematic ill treatment, exposure, and starvation

The population of Gaza is increasing, so no genocide.

Can we put this "genocide" label away now?

I didn't say I agreed with it, I just outlined the options.

@MushMonster" But if he, [Bibi} really and deeply, wanted the best for Israel's future, he would have been debating with Palestinians how to sort their States, once and for all."

Why is a Palestinian State his problem to sort out?

The Palestinians were offered a 2 State Solution in 1936, 1948, 2000 & 2008

In 1936, in response to the Arab Revolt and increased Arab violence against Jews, the British government appointed a commission of inquiry headed by Lord Peel to assess the cause of the riots and recommend a solution. The Peel Commission recommended partitioning the land into a Jewish state and an Arab one, alongside an international zone stretching from Jerusalem to Jaffa, which would remain under British mandatory authority. The Peel Commission was rejected by the Arabs and, by 1938, Britain had declared the plan unimplementable.

In 1948, the Arabs rejected the Partition Plan, which led to the War of Independence. The plan recommended dividing the British Mandate-controlled area of Palestine into two states, one Arab and one Jewish, with Jerusalem designated as an “international” city. The plan would have granted independence to Palestinians and Jews alike. When Israel declared statehood on May 14, 1948, Arab armies from Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Transjordan attacked the country.
Following Israel's military victory, the Palestinian Arabs failed to create their own state and much of the territory allotted to them by the United Nations was occupied by Jordan (West Bank and East Jerusalem) and Egypt (Gaza and Sinai) or incorporated into the State of Israel.

In July 2000, U.S. President Bill Clinton, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, and Chairman of the Palestinian Authority Yasser Arafat gathered at Camp David for final status negotiations to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Taking place after significant breakthroughs, such as the Oslo Accords, as well as setbacks including the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, the summit represented a unique opportunity to end the conflict and give birth to a new Middle East.
Unfortunately, it would end in failure, as Arafat rejected Barak’s offer of an independent Palestinian State, which included east Jerusalem as the capital, “religious sovereignty” over the Temple Mount, and for a symbolic number of Palestinians to enter Israel.

In 2008, Palestinian leadership again rejected a land-for-peace offer. This time Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas rejected Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s offer that was comparable to Barak’s during the Camp David Summit in 2000. This deal called for Israel to retain some blocs of Israeli communities beyond the 1949 Armistice lines in exchange for territory in Israel.

One can only conclude that the Palestinians only want a Palestinian State without Israel existing.at all.

I am of the train of thought that it is and always will be a big clusterfuck.
The comment about saving the IDF a task -today maybe.... But is there no thought for what it will bring tomorrow? Or if an IDF soldier gets killed by those weapons? Or a hostage?
There is zero chance that arming the other side in a conflict is going to bring peace or any sort of solution to the chaos. Zero.

Are you actually condoning this behaviour and making a joke about it?
Why is it entirely unacceptable for Iran to do this but 'a stroke of tactical genius' when BN does the same thing?
Why is it entirely unacceptable for Iran to want a nuclear weapon but Israel is considered no risk at all, despite the crazy man and his friends in charge of the place and the fact that they will not allow any inspections?

Even worse, why is the genocide that has been taking place in Gaza entirely ignored by a number of posters who have commented repeatedly on this and other threads? Is it because the people are Muslim and many people are openly Islamophobic (yes, many are openly anti semitic too but this doesn't make the former okay) or are some people just utterly lacking in humanity that as long as the terrible thing is happening to others and not to them they just don't give a damn?

If what you say is correct then Bibi is working on the principle of "my enemy's enemy is my friend".

This could be a either stroke of tactical genius or a complete clusterfuck.😮

In any event, if they are all fighting among themselves it could save the IDF a task.

Following from your second paragraph here. How can Netanyahu reconcile with the idea of arming "friendly" terrorist associated people in Gaza? Because I do see a correlation between that crazy shit he is pulling, under our noses, and the future wars. Maybe Netanyahu, his cabinet and the IDF should stop allowing any arms into Gaza, as a start of a solution. Zero arms. 100% aid supplies.

OK. well, when these "League Tables" appear it will be quite interesting. Then you can apologise for calling me "misinformed".

Here it is from the 'horses mouth'

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/statistics-on-foreign-national-offenders-and-the-immigration-system/statistics-on-foreign-national-offenders-and-the-immigration-system

Apart from mis spelling IAEA!
Perimenopausal brain combined with being v pushed for time. 😩

But a solution is clearly needed, preferably one that actually sticks. Hopefully, nearly everyone can agree on that.
Luckily, none of us are in charge of negotiations but, even if you believe that Iran is 100% at fault and Israel is 0% at fault, and I'm sure you wouldn't be stupid enough to think that, Israel still need to talk to the Iranians in order to find a compromise to ensure peace for all the innocent people caught up in this violence.

I totally agree.
Israel, the US and, no doubt the UK, and no doubt other rogue elements in society, have a long history of sponsoring terrorists. They are a massive bunch of hypocrites for pretending that they are morally superior to the Iranians.
BN has his agenda, which appears to be the destruction and regime change of multiple other countries in the region. This has been his agenda for decades. Once he is no longer PM, his life is likely to be in danger, of course, as he has many enemies in Israel as well as elsewhere.

I don't know and I'm disinclined to believe the Gaza Ministry of Health's figures (seeing as they are a mouthpiece for Hamas).

I don't have an Instagram account and I'm not in Gaza.

And who are these "millions of people" who claim to have seen this hospital blown up? And which hospital was it again?

@mrsrtobinson

Just out of curiosity, how many people do you believe have been killed in Gaza since the 7/10 attack?

If unherd and the spectator are your go to media sources then I’m not surprised you are misinformed. They’re the print wing of GB news
Also, what aid over Gaza?! Pull the other one.

Hopefully the ceasefire will hold. News saying it is atm

Israel pulled back by US

No what I am saying is that millions of people saw the live videos and if you could educate yourself in the basic function of clicking 'follow' on instagram you would see these deemed-mythical videos, live, with your own eyes ;)

Cant say the proof doesnt exist if you refuse to look!

No, I'm not that IT savvy.

So what you're saying is that there is no proof of what you claim?

Interesting

What do you see as a solution when Hamas ( a proxy of Iran ) has said they want to repeat the 7th October massacre.

The October 7 Massacre was described by Ghazi Hamad, a Hamas official, as, “...just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth, because we have the determination, the resolve, and the capabilities to fight…”

I don't think ignoring them in the hope they'll go away is going to work, do you?

Anyway I'm all ears & eyes awaiting your suggestions(s).