I can’t explain what modesty means to my dd age 21

Women and girls don’t have to modify what they wear because men can’t control themselves.

I have explained the following to my DD, albeit on more age appropriate language: There are parts of the body that, in Western culture, must be kept covered in public (genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics such as breasts). Beyond this there is also an expectation that women will keep a certain minimum of the rest of their body covered, usually the torso from roughly armpits down, buttocks, and upper legs - so say mid thigh upwards. There is also an expectation that men will keep these areas covered, but not so much of a taboo if they don’t, and in hot weather or on the beach this taboo is lifted for men. The taboo is reduced for women in the heat and at the beach, the latter allowing for the baring of the stomach, back, upper legs and on occasion part of the buttocks (generally in a bikini). These expectations are based on sociocultural norms, which in part in this country have their roots in the interpretation of the Abrahamic (Christian) religious texts. Other regions where historically the majority of the population follow certain specific religions (including but not limited to the Abrahamic religions) also tend to have such norms. These norms are not universal, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong or shameful about any part of the body, or having it exposed. Modesty is the concept that tends to be used to apply to women who meet these societal cultural norms, with those who do not do so being viewed as ‘immodest’. This comes with a hefty dose of judgement, which is indeed rooted in patriarchy. If a woman is the chattel of a man then, bluntly, only that man gets to ‘view the goods’. Levi Strauss wrote some interesting stuff about the ‘ownership’ of, and access to, women by men, and the means by which men seek to control and limit the access of other men to the women that are their chattels (eg their wives and daughters). Broadly, if men aren’t expected to do it - then expecting it of women is probably sexism at work. Having said that, I personally prefer not expose much skin because of the semiotic of that in our society, and how I fear I would be viewed. As I get older that remains, it’s just that instead of fearing being seen as ‘tarty’ or ‘available’, I worry about looking like I am going gaga and forgetting to wear proper clothes, or looking desperate for male attention or approval when the way I look these days means I’m not going to get it. I also worry that sight of my aging, flabby body would be unpleasant for onlookers.

TL: DR Yep it’s patriarchy, sexism, and always a good way of victim blaming (as in ‘immodest’ women deserve whatever bad treatment they get from men)

There's dressing modestly, which yes is an outdated concept and behaving modestly...

But you can apply both terms to things which are still socially acceptable / recommended.

For example...(and I'm speaking generally), most workplaces don't consider it professional for employees of any sex to turn up in hot pants or crop tops. Rather than talking of dressing modestly, we say dressing professionally but for all intents and purposes they're the same.

Likewise, most people believe in dressing respectfully in places or worship (or in court!). More so in Catholic countries than here and of course it doesn't mean that showing one's knees & shoulders mean one is excluded from a religion...Again, we talk about dressing respectfully rather than modestly.

Modest behaviour these days means behaving with consideration of others and not being an arrogant show-off. We don't generally describe this as modest behaviour, but that's what it is.

Don't ask me how we explain professional or respectful dress codes without bringing sex and patriarchal codes into it because I don't know!

Why are you even trying to ‘explain modesty’ to a grown adult woman? She’s 21, not 12. She can wear whatever she wants and it’s not your place to tell her what is or isn’t appropriate. She’s an adult.

She also clearly does understand, but simply disagrees with you.

Just her existence can attract the attention of really bad people.
The idea that more clothing can protect her against them is mostly a wishful thinking on your side. It might make a difference with the less serious ones - and that is something she will decide for herself, and she will be changing her position as she goes, but with the real creeps it isn't about what she wears.

My understanding is that modesty and being modest is simply another way to saying 'don't bring attention to yourself'.

Dressing modestly would be not having excess skin on show (not sure how anyone assesses too much). Being modest about achievements etc is basically seen as not bragging.

It's probably considered to be an old fashioned value these days where children are exposed to the land of reality TV, body enhancements and a sense of entitlement.

In my opinion, teaching young women to understand their motivation for things is more important than teaching "this is an acceptable skirt length".

Both the woman in the niqab and the woman in the mini skirt could be wearing their garments to appeal to a misogynistic ideal set by our patriarchal society. It just comes in different forms.

Understanding that wearing whatever we think we want to wear has to come with internal analysis of all the factors that contribute to those choices.

It suits society for us to be both Madonna or the Whore, and whichever we choose is wrong.

There is nothing inherently wrong with dressing completely modestly, or dressing completely the opposite... But thinking that it's all down to an "independent" decision based on feminist free will is simple incorrect.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be attractive to men... But are we dressing in a way that contributes to the commodifying of women's bodies?

Or are we dressing this way because the sun feels good on our bodies and we like the way we look, independent of outside influences.

And don't forget, religion is the basis of most of the oppression of women. It has been used to keep us in a very small box while men have had their way in the world, doing appalling things hidden behind the face of righteousness. Is adhering to modestly laws set out by these men really our choice? When we face shunning and shaming from our communities?

There is so much hypocrisy, victim blaming, slut shaming around women who wear less clothing... And then there's mocking of those who don't. They are prudes and boring and men will say that is what they want, whilst watching porn of the opposite.

Women literally can't win. So teaching daughters all of the context surrounding why we may choose to wear what we do, is really important. As is the attitude of "fuck it".

But it's an incredibly complex topic.

Why is modesty only ever used in context of girls? My son has been sitting in the house all day with his nipples and lower legs on display. Should I have a word with him about dressing modestly?

X posted and I Love this explanation!

What I don’t understand is where is the line. Why wouldn’t people walk around with their bums on show? Or with boobs on full display? Surely covering up any part of your body could be considered modest? Isnt it all relative; I could be considered modest in a bikini vs someone in the nude and someone wearing a coverup even more so?
Where is the line between modest or not?
I think the religious definition of modesty is based on strict ‘rules’ and anything less is not modest. But if you’re not religious and don’t want to follow said religious rules then surely anything is considered modest?

Fundamentally it's about respect for your body as part of a whole person.

The issue with "baring a body" isn't actually about nudity per se. If you live in the Amazon jungle where no one wears many clothes, because they will rot and give you skin diseases, nudity is not sexualized, and so it's not immodest. Just like it's not immodest in certain settings here either, like medical settings, or (potentially) at the beach.

But for the most part the reason women's clothing is showing off a lot of skin is in order to overtly sexualize that body, in a public kind of way, and in isolation from the whole person and her relationships to others. It's a kind of commodification that is inherently transactional and depersonaliized.

It's actually the mirror image of extreme forms of covering women's bodies because they are seen as too sexual. Both reduce women to being defined, publicly, primarily as sexual objects to those they do not have intimate relationships with.

This here proves your point. The unwanted attention is enough of a reason.

I don't have a DD but I don't think it is difficult to explain. Where I live and in my team at work there are women who choose to dress modestly (completely off their bat) because it accords with their religious beliefs. If you are not religious then you wear whatever you want because we live in a free country and no one has the right to tell another person what to wear. Quite simple. You are right that this is definitely a you problem and not her problem.

My mother tried to explain it to my sister but she didn’t get it and said why shouldn’t she wear that out .

Again though, of course she gets it, she just doesn't agree with it.

Yes it is. It's classy to be modest within healthy boundaries. Why did all the women in the older days wear beautiful clothes and now it's all trashy cheap stuff. Sad. My own dd is trying to make me feel the same way as you but I know where I stand and that's not feeling comfortable with leering men...

She is right in a way but there are people who havw such low self esteem they think the way to get a man is to go out in as little as possible so they can look better than they feel, people dont want to pretend it happens but it does

And people absolutely have the right to 'show off their body' if they want too and none has the right to say anything but I am also yet to meet someone who has no mental health issues who do it, they have body issues and think it makes them feel good

Again they have the right but I have the right to think they may have issues within themselves

I would never use the word modesty, but I wouldn’t have an issue telling my DD or DS that they should walk around showing their bums to the world. It’s not rocket science.

Why would it be something to be proud of?

It's just clothes, down to the wearer how they feel comfortable and how they wish to look.

What you see is women making their own choices and wearing exactly what they want to wear.

I was also raised Catholic and I'm still confused about why you're confused?

I'm older than her, and I honestly don't get this concept as something positive or a virtue.

What good is "modesty" or "dressing modestly" supposed to do for me? If it isn't beneficial for me, who is it beneficial for?

Yes, in some countries it is required to some extent, but that just puts those countries out of my travel list.