I can’t explain what modesty means to my dd age 21

@AllTheChaos Did you not reread the part I quoted?

"usually the torso from roughly armpits down, buttocks, and upper legs - so say mid thigh upwards. There is also an expectation that men will keep these areas covered, but not so much of a taboo if they don’t, and in hot weather or on the beach this taboo is lifted for men."

You explicitly stated that there is not so much of a taboo if men don't cover their arses, and in hot weather or on the beach, there is no taboo about men having their arses covered.

You are categorically wrong on that. Almost everyone would be rightly disgusted if a man exposed his hairy disgusting arse in public.

The same taboo does not exist for women because women's arses are not offensive. This is why women are permitted to wear skirts that are short enough to show their arse, or to show their arse completely on the beach.

I would say in general, there is much less of an expectation for women to remain covered because their bodies are less offensive, and indeed, women generally dress in a way in which a lot less of their bodies are covered (for example, legs, arms, lower abdomen, arse, etc).

Even with the chest area, women will show far more of this than men do. Literally the only exception to that is the nipple, which women will always keep covered. Men can go topless, but only at a swimming pool, beach, or when sunbathing (sunbathing is a silly activity, though that's a discussion for another day). Any man who went topless in a street (for example) would look somewhat odd.

By the way... the expectation for women to cover their nipples varies greatly from culture to culture. For example, in mainland Europe, it is very normal and common for women to go completely topless on the beach, and no one bats an eyelid at this.

Women can wear what they want … within the bounds of society which change all the time

but also women’s clothing choices are given meaning even if you would rather they were not .

The suit for an interview

the revealing number
vs the less revealing for a night out before and after you have a boyfriend - it’s just what people do. You can read a lot about a woman’s self confidence and self esteem in clothing choices and that reading tends to be pretty accurate

womwns clothing isn’t neutral soace ( even if it should be )

’modesty’ is sometimes a red herring.

Much of what is talked about out in this thread is either basic cultural expectations etiquette in the UK, and or body shaming.

It isn’t normal to show the whole of breasts in this country, or genitals / genital area, and what is perfectly polite in the beach may not be seen as ok in a restaurant.

And what is or is not etiquette/ good manners should not depend on whether anyone sees that body as aesthetically pleasing.

Arses are just that, not ‘horrible hairy arses’, breasts are just that, not ‘saggy’ or sexualised.etc etc.

Withon our socially accepted etiquette everyone has equal right to have their body on show or not. Stop with the body shaming for the old, the fat, the maternally stretch-marked, etc etc.

Fair point.

And yet look at the outrage on MN about the naked bike ride, which is attended by both sexes.

wearing clothes that you choose to, that is not impacting other people

Wrong, unless you are staying at home and live alone.
What you wear in a public place DOES impact other people, because they have no choice - they see you. They can then choose to look away or look down, but they have already seen you at that point.

The primary purpose of clothes is to signal to other people, i.e. to be seen by others. You may not like it, but that is the way it is.

So - are your clothes screaming "look at me, look at me, look at me"? If so, it is good to be aware of that.

Young women WANT to be seen; evolutionarily, that is the prime method of finding a mate.
But it is not a free-for all; there are social expectations and norms about what is appropriate in what circumstances.
Issues arise when young women are inexperienced in finessing their choices, so inadvertently go too far in "showing off", i.e. being inappropriately immodest, without realising that is what they are doing.

This. I fully understand that any adult is perfectly entitled to wear whatever they want to. They also need to understand, though, that certain sick people will perceive that as an invitation. Wrong, of course, but it’s not an ideal world.

@coffeegirl73
Women can wear what they like OP. Soz. HTH.

I am talking about societal norms. As I said in the rest of my post - which you didn’t include in the quoted section, these norms change IN SITUATIONS LIKE THE BEACH WHEN WOMEN ARE WEARING BIKINIS. Whereas for men, going eg topless on the street is less frowned upon, but for women is a no no. And women generally don’t wear bikinis except in situations like the beach, pool etc, ie not to nip to Tescos. I’m not saying I agree with these norms, just that I recognise them, and the fact that there are double standard via a vis expectations for males vs females. So, slowly for those at the back: women are expected to cover up more than men, except in specific circumstances, and even then there are double standards.

Excellent 👌 post. 👏

I think modesty means not flaunting your sexuality as your best/most valued/most important attribute.

I disagree.

Just to chuck another point in - I don't like seeing men wandering around without a top on/shirt open in hot weather. (However toned they are!) So I go for 'modest' dressing of men and women - very much not having everything on display......

The way I explain it to my (early teens DD) is dressing for the occasion and your age. It tends to work well to find that very precarious balance.

This is interesting. I’m going to assume your son was wearing loose and comfy shorts in this heat. The only man I’ve even personally known to wear micro shorts with his butt cheeks very much in evidence was a gay man on his way to a club. Even in the 80s, when men’s shorts were much smaller than they are now, they were large enough to be decent. This isn’t what’s normally available for girls. There’s a disconnect between what society teaches us is appropriate for men and for women.

I find it very odd that when little children are in KS1 we teach them about the no pants rule. It’s unacceptable (obviously) to touch, to look etc. And yet, from year 6 onwards they want and are encouraged to wear clothing that sexualises them and this is normalised to the point that they feel they’re empowered if they reveal what they’ve previously been taught (for their own safety) is private.
it’s a confused and confusing world

I think modesty applies to men and women. I don't want to see anyone's bum cheeks or genitals in the street regardless of their sex. I don't want to see anyone's nipples either. Men swimming in shorts doesn't bother me but I don't want them in the streets without a top on.

Look at the dictionary definition.

It basically means not broadcasting / showing off.

As regards to dress, yes it shares a section of the Venn diagram with misogyny , but if you don’t want men out and about wearing stretchy Lycra shorts in semi opaque fabric that lets you see whether they are circumcised, it’s also ok to suggest that micro Lycra barely covering vulva and nipples is not within our cultural etiquette.

The point is that some things are private. No-one doubts that your genitals are private - you don't go round flashing them in public. The question of where you draw the line is a question of modesty, which is a complex personal judgement. At extremes (full face covering at one end, pornography at the other) I think female exploitation certainly does play a role. As women though, we decide where to position ourselves mostly in the middle ground - how much cleavage to flash, how forward to be with men, how much casual sex, etc. Within the scope of that decision I think personal boundaries and knowing your worth are important and are expressed through modesty. Too much and it certainly implies someone is out of control and hasn't thought things through. Or maybe just drunk.

I think the word "modesty" has been hijacked as a way to make women responsible and feel shamed for male sexual aggression perpetrated against them.

I am pretty sure that there was a brand of sanitary pads in the eighties called "modesty" lilac packet? Am I imagining this?

@coffeegirl73 with regards to your 13 year old niece perhaps your sister realises that her daughter could attract unwanted attention from men with bad intentions whatever she wears and needs to be prepared and know how to protect herself if it happens.

At 14 I was knocked to the ground and sexually assaulted in the street while wearing my school uniform trousers and a school jumper. I scared him off and prevented being raped because my mum had always told me to scream and shout as loud as I can if approached or attacked by a stranger. Luckily that tactic worked for me in that moment and I was helped by a women who heard my screaming.

If I'd been dressed in a crop top and tight shorts would you have held me partially to blame for that man's actions?

I remember being annoyed a few years back when 'modesty' shorts appeared for primary-aged girls to wear under their school dress - the implication being that ordinary knickers were 'immodest'.

I've never heard modesty used in relation to men/boys appearance.

I think I have always dressed 'modestly', not because of what men may or may not think about me, but because I don't want anybody to catch sight of my private areas by mistake. Actually, I also don't really want to see anybody else's bits on display, even at the beach - I think these tiny, tiny bikinis are just awful - certainly not flattering, and they look quite uncomfortable.

I could be considered modest in a bikini vs someone in the nude and someone wearing a coverup even more so?

I think not wearing clothes is often less sexual. It’s just a body. Put someone in a gimp suit and it’s clearly more immodest even though covered.
I think nude sunbathers look less sexualised than the thing/ g string bikini bottoms, whose purpose is to draw attention to the arse

Modesty in how we dress isn’t about hiding who we are. It is about showing up with self-respect and confidence without feeling the need to put everything on display. In a world that’s so focused on appearances, it shifts the emphasis from “look at me” to “get to know me.”

Choosing to dress modestly encourages people to focus on who we are as a person, not just what we look like. I

Let’s be honest—there’s a lot of pressure out there, especially for women and girls, to dress in ways that get attention or fit into some ideal. But modesty can actually be empowering. It’s a way to take back control of how we present ourselves and to raise the standard for how we are seen and treated.

I have conflicting opinions about this too. It’s tied up with body shaming and class and freedom and misogyny and self expression and an over sexualised culture. It’s really hard to untangle why I feel like you should be allowed to wear whatever you like, but not wanting my daughter and her friends to wear skimpy outfits.
And while I theoretically support freedom of all women to wear wherever they like and express themselves, sometimes I think women/girls look really un-classy in little outfits and I don’t like that about myself. I associate lots of skin on show with a poor education, which is a prejudice I can’t shake off.

I wore little outfits when I was younger and was sexually assaulted, probably unlinked, but I don’t want that for my daughter, so to try to have some aspect of modesty without victim blaming is an almost impossible line to walk, but I do try.