I can’t explain what modesty means to my dd age 21

In Judaism there are modesty expectations for men. In both clothing and behaviour.

I usually choose to dress modestly (below knee skirts, below elbow sleeves, high neckline) but not always and obviously not in the privacy of my own home.

I recognise that all clothing is a sort of communication with anyone who sees you, and also affects how I act and carry myself. I am married and don't want to encourage others to view me sexually, so I don't dress in a way that flaunts it.

In the case of teenagers and young adults, I worry that by dressing in a way that highlights their sexuality, they may not be respected or respect themselves for all their other wonderful characteristics which aren't immediately visible. That's not to suggest that being physically attractive, attracted, enjoying sexuality is wrong at all. It is normal and healthy, but I wouldn't want my daughter or myself to be reduced to just that. I especially worry for young girls (thinking back to a thread about skirt lengths) that young girls who aren't confident in themselves, are trying to find their self-esteem from male attention.

Would she like to go out and see blokes with cock and bollocks hanging out? No? Then she understands modesty.

It's about consideration for others as well as self respect.

Not everyone wants to see that.

Okay, @BoredZelda, so you're saying this doesn't apply to you: "If they started covering up because they felt they 'should' cover an older, fatter body".

Not sure why a thing that doesn't apply to you is 'nonsense' because it doesn't apply to you, but whatever.

I do think it's just sexist shite basically.

There's nothing wrong with women or men choosing to wear short skirts, skimpy shorts, tiny tops etc. but it's only women that get told they should be 'modest'. Fuck that.

Some women choose to not reveal their bodies because of comfort, style, religion, culture, personal choice, insecurity etc

People reveal their bodies because they like the clothes they're wearing and feel confident in them, hot weather, wanting to tan, following fashion, like being performative, wanting to exercise etc.

Nobody is wrong or right for wearing a certain number/size of clothing.

No one is stopping you.

I personally would prefer to dress modestly as I don't want to share my body with every male gaze that I might come across. For me my body is sacred. I believe misogyny is women being made to feel that dressing modestly is somehow oppressive as there's less out there for men to gawk at.

Well this is a load of nonsense. I wear loose clothing and leggings because of comfort now I’m 50. I’m overweight and as I got older I’ve found I am far less tolerant to wearing clothes with heavier seams and waistbands. You couldn’t pay me to wear a pair of jeans. Heck, most days I can’t even tolerate socks. Most fabrics are scratchier than they used to be, I’m not sure if that’s the fabrics or if it’s me.

Clothes are not particularly well designed for larger women, particularly short ones. The cut is wrong and they never fit in the right places. I also can’t face trawling round shops trying to find clothes that are my size and more so I wear what is easier to find online. Fashion for the over 50s is a pretty niche thing so we are stuck between wearing clothes designed for a 20/30 year old, or going for Octogenarian comfort.

At no point have I considered anything about being hassled by men.

This

Is he okay with seeing slim women, with what he considers attractive bodies, in those clothes though?
FFS, women don't need to dress to please men, and even if they want to, they probably don't give a fuck what your husband, who's probably old enough to be their father or grandfather, thinks.

I has zero self esteem issues, no mental health problems, no body image problems when I was younger. I wore low cut tops and short skirts because I liked the way I looked in them. I also wore long maxi dresses and dungarees, because I liked the way I looked in them. It had nothing to do with showing off anything, I just chose to wear whatever I wanted on any given day. Same as I do now.

Why is it only young women who are assumed not to know their own minds when it comes to what they wear? Men dress how they want, showing skin or not are we labelling them all as having body image issues and mental health problem? No, so it can’t be an age thing. Older women who have fabulous figures can wear figure hugging clothes and we are celebrate them, saying how great they look for their age, so it’s can’t be a woman thing.

Perhaps it’s that we insist on still calling young women “girls” so continue to infantilise them and assume they are too young and stupid to know their own minds.

21 is young in terms of maturity. She’ll think differently in her 30s+. She hasn’t lived much life at 21.

nailed it

@coffeegirl73 - you keep saying that you're confused.

What you appear to be confused about is why your daughter doesn't think the same way as you regarding how she dresses

There's no need for you to be confused

Not everyone thinks as you do

We're all different and we all think differently and have different beliefs and ways of living/dressing etc

No need for you to be confused

I hope that helps 🙂

YY. We have women here, relieved to be no longer hassled by men now they're wearing bigger, looser clothes - failing to link the fact that they started wearing them when they got older and fatter!

They'd be hassled less now, regardless of clothing. They'd have been hassled when young, whatever they wore. If they started covering up because they felt they 'should' cover an older, fatter body, they're still allowing men's sexual preferences to dictate their wardrobe.

This will always end up as a circular debate. Women should able to bare what they want to bare, free of objectification and judgement. Yet baring what they want to will lead to objectification. But objectifying women is a man’s issue and not the woman’s. Yet the positive feeling of displaying your body as a woman is intrinsically linked to women having been objectified in the first place.

Probably slightly off topic, but this thread reminded me of a cartoon strip I saw years and years ago.
A young woman had gone to a pool party at her friend's house but had forgotten her bikini. Friend tells her to go into her bedroom and borrow one from the bedside cupboard.
Young woman comes back and is happily walking round the pool in her borrowed finery, when the friend calls out 'did you get that from the top drawer? That's not a bikini, that's underwear!'
And the young woman is instantly ashamed and mortified and runs away to change and everyone is laughing at her.
The moral of the story was, I suppose, what's the difference between a bikini and a bra and pants combo?
Why embarrassment to be seen in one set, but happy to be seen in the other?

Perhaps you need to understand (face the fact) that certain sick people (men) will perceive a young woman's very existence as a sexual invitation.

Clothes don't cause rape. Or sexual harassment: in the noughties, I used to pass a secondary school on my way to work. The girls wore their uniform skirts mid-calf length, not rolled up. The racket from men in cars was deafening. Every single morning. Men on foot would hassle them.

The first attempted rape I experienced was at age 12, in regulation uniform complete with 'school knickers'. Come to think of it, that might be why I never did buy into the fallacy that predators respect staid clothing.

Of course it isn’t something ‘to be proud of’. It’s a culturally-relative mess of patriarchal nonsense based on the idea that women’s bodies are inherently sexual and need to be kept for viewing by those with ownership privileges.

Whether someone perambulates around town in scrunch-bum leggings and a bikini top or a bonnet and crinoline is fine as long as it’s not a coerced choice.

Let your daughter dress how she wants to.
I am Muslim and I have just started wearing a headscarf, when people ask me why I just say because I want to - that should be a good enough reason for us women.

Before wearing a headscarf, last week, I wore strappy dresses, tight bodycon dresses, jeans with cropped tops - again I did it because I wanted to.

As long as your daughter is not dressing inappropriate then she doesn't have to dress modest if she doesn't want to.

I saw a lady wearing a micro mini skirt to a play group where she was bending down numerous times to attend to her toddler, each time flashing her knickers and parts. It was a little ridiculous as her whole ass was on display when she wasn't even bending down.

However had she been at a club or the beach, I wouldn't even have noticed!

Just teach your daughter to be sensible and aware of her surroundings and she will dress fine I am sure

The latter, 100%

...but the Lime bike saddles.... 😆

But I agree that tiny clothing can appeal if you are absorbing the message that you are there to be looked at, and that your power comes from how desirable you are as an object for the make gaze.

That can all fuck off too.

The UN had a great exhibition in New York showing the outfits women were wearing when they were attacked.

Turns out it was clothes. A wide variety of them.

Fuck 'modesty'

spotlightinitiative.org/news/what-were-you-wearing-un-exhibit-demands-justice-survivors-sexual-violence

In my mind 'modesty' means:

'men can't/won't be held accountable for their actions, so it is your job to cover up, even though what you wear makes no difference to your likelihood of getting attacked. But at least we can blame you'

I find this whole subject tricky.

On the one hand, I have 2 daughters and I think they should wear what they like and not feel ashamed to do so.

On the other hand, why does this always seem to translate to wearing as little as possible? Apparently it's "empowerment" for women to dress as they wish yet this also seems to mean "look as sexy as possible"

Men don't seem to feel the need to flash their bodies to feel "empowered" and so as much as we dress it up as wearing what you like, young girls and women still seem to absorb the idea that they need to show off their bodies.

I don't know if this has anything to do with what you're saying but is just something I am noticing more and more as the girls grow up and their friends begin to become obsessed with teeny tiny clothing