I can’t explain what modesty means to my dd age 21

I didn't go clubbing. I don't drink.

It’s quite internalised misogyny to think your body is something shameful to be covered.

In your youth you went clubbing in polo necks?

if you are somewhere hot and dancing you dress for the purpose.

I have honestly never thought about how much ‘bosom’ was showing in any top I’ve worn.

I wear bikinis to swim/sunbathe so as long as that’s covered what’s the problem??

Of course it still exists - in the minds of everyone, including your daughter (she presumably isn't going out naked). It's just that different times / places / cultures draw the line in different places. There are women in niqabs who think it's immodest to let strangers see their hair or faces (which you presumably don't agree with). Edwardians would have thought it indecent if a woman's skirt wasn't scraping the floor and someone got a glimpse of ankle (ditto). Whereas in modern western culture we've settled on "genitals and breasts to be kept under wraps in public" and beyond that, well, depends who you are and where you are and what you're doing. I think nowadays most of us take umbrage not so much at bare flesh itself as seeing it out of context, e.g. bikini tops are fine at the beach but not what you want to see when meeting your new colleague in the office or anything at all formal. And then there are some tribes where women just go about topless and that's normal. It's just about where the line is.

It does seem possible that your DD genuinely doesn't understand the concept of "modesty" in the sick sense of "don't go about looking like you're woman-shaped or it'll be your fault if men act like perverts" (is that the message the nuns gave you?), because she just hasn't been raised like that and it doesn't occur to her. Which would be a good thing.

I manage to wear outfits that don't reveal my bosom. But as it's a free country, you do you.

What other people were doing never entered my head.

going out type tops tended to be cut low. I can only buy what the shops sell.

in summer/ on holiday I’ll expose more skin to get a tan/avoid tan lines.

I dress for the weather/ comfort/ practicality

@WhenYouSayNothingAtAll exactly . You didn't need to point that out and was kind of the point of my post.

Were you wearing low cut tops so people would look?

I drove back home last night through the busy city centre after the theatre, drunk crowds thronging the roads, it was hot, lots of weaving in and out of the cars, staggering, etc. Not only single man was showing more than his calves and forearms - contrast the women, a good many of whom looked almost naked from a slight distance…. I’m not even exaggerating. It was really quite shocking and it’s a bit obtuse not to ask whether it’s evidence of some kind of structural problem. Being almost naked in a public place makes you so much more vulnerable.Why is one class of person so willing to make themselves so much more vulnerable than the other class? And who is benefiting from this state of affairs? Discuss.

Oh, dear ... 'reverse the sexes' fails again 🤨 If a woman's vagina and labia were ever to hang out of her clothes, she'd need a doctor more than she needed fashion advice!

Perhaps it’s because men are not generally competing with each other to wear as little as possible ? The day men are worrying about and being judged for whether or not they are highlighting their erogenous zones or not in the way that women do is the day I’ll believe we have true equality.

Pride in not showing cleavage??

honesty I must be naive because I didnt think anyone alive still thought that.

so people have seen me in low tops & thought me immoral??

the thought never crossed my mind!!

also wet, also sunburnt 😁

I enjoy being naked at home! I'm using "natural" in a different sense here - what's natural for my character. In that sense I find that I am easily aligned with Judaism.

I suspect that living life "naturally" otherwise would be quite cold...

"unnatural" is an interesting comment becaus of course truly natural is naked

As a Muslim who has sons and daughters I've taught them both to dress and behave modestly.

I'm not sure! I don't think I'd feel comfortable with it, and perhaps I would be less religiously observant if it felt so unnatural. I don't dress modestly from a wholly religious perspective, although it has given me direction. I think that there is value in living up to community expectation. While I'm in the market for more modest swimwear, I haven't made the leap, so you'll find me in the pool in a regular swimsuit. While significantly more publicly naked than usual, I don't mind because it's in place.

I guess its less likely he'll get sexually assaulted though

I dont think modesty just applies to women! I have worked with people wearing trousers so tight I can see their dick clearly, or flashing a lot of chest. There are times and places for such things - but work? No, not the place.

Funny when I opened this I thought it would be about downplaying achievements not referring to clothing / look.

If your religion had a different expectation about dressing in public.....lets say eg the expectation was that you would go out in public in a bikini what do you think you would do? Not wishing to cause offence, honest question.

I only ever hear modesty in relation to women. I've never heard a man be told to put his top on, or consider the fact his shorts show the shape of his penis, or that his bum sticks out of them.
I think you're better not putting the value of us as women or lack thereof on what we decide to wear.

The problem lies in having to label everything

it’s just wearing clothes. Propel can and should wear what they like but the also need to respect that some places will have a dress code.

Exactly this

Sorry, a bit illegible above, but hope you get the gist. Stuck on the sofa, fairly unwell here...