I can’t explain what modesty means to my dd age 21

No of course it isn’t an invitation to normal people! Some individuals are sickos who convince themselves it is, though @GarlicMile

Woman’s hour yesterday had an interview with a strict Jewish lady called yehudis fletcher who was sexually abused within a community foster family when she was younger. I doubt she was dressed provocatively in that environment. Some men are just rapists of vulnerable women.

I understand what you're saying. But, look, can clothing actually be an invitation to rape?

It can't, can it, because that would imply some women want to be raped and are, literally, asking for it. If they were weird enough to want to be raped, they could just ask around; no reason why they'd need to dress in a certain manner.

Everybody knows women in skimpy clothes are not asking to be raped.. Rapists know it. They don't really perceive styles of clothing as invitations!

Some of them say they do. They're lying. Rapists rape out of violent sexual entitlement, hatred, a variety of unpleasant motives which all come down to misogyny. They talk of women "asking for it" because rapists have learned this is a good way to blame their victims for their crimes. Misogynists make women responsible for every uncomfortable feeling they have, every unpleasant thing that happens to them and every nasty thing they do.

Misogynists who "perceive certain styles of clothing as an invitation" are lying. They know the clothes aren't an invitation to assault. The clothes might well be an invitation to look, and perhaps to flirt.

With apologies for seeming objectification, it's a bit like, say, advertising a job or goods for sale. You want people to be attracted, interested, to talk to you about it. Doesn't mean everyone who fancies it has a right to it. Displaying cakes on the bakery counter doesn't mean "help yourself". If anybody tries to claim they thought it did, they're lying. Obviously.

That notwithstanding, certain individuals do perceive certain styles of clothing as an invitation. To pretend otherwise is foolish.

I understand perfectly well. I was abused by my father and my brother.

Lists are perfectly fine :)

On lust though - I waited till I was married to DH.

Anyway I feel we've diverted from the topic. I dress modestly and teach my children to do so as well.

List isn’t a crime!

it makes life so much more fun.

id hate to live in a world without list.

why do t you emigrate to a Muslim country if you hate uk culture so much.

its very arrogant of you to tell us how we should live.

our clubbing culture was/is world leading and something to be proud of.

I was just explaining to PP why I dress modestly and don't wear low cut tops.

Also explained why I don't drink why I steer well clear of nightclubs.

I don’t know how many people complain about bouncers or get spiked. Do you? Do you have any statistics to back it up? This isn’t about what your religion teaches you. This is about actual facts and well documented crime stats. The fact is violent crimes and sexual assault can happen anywhere, but more commonly occurs in the victims home. And, as per the theme of the thread, it’s also nothing to with how modest they are.

And how many people complain that the bouncers are creepy and/or don't take them seriously when reporting an assault. I know many young women who unfortunately have had their bums grabbed by men in clubs. How many young women get spiked?

How often do drunken arguments sprawl out into senseless violence?

I know what my religion teaches me and I know what to stay away from.

Statistically most sexual assaults occur in a residential location, so at home. Perpetrated by someone the victim knows, usually a romantic partner.
Typically stabbing occur in urban areas, mostly during robberies or violent assaults. Quite often gang related. Most nightclubs have bouncers and on entering many nightclubs, bags and bodies are searched for weapons and drugs on arrival.

It's what my religion teaches me and for very good reason. It's full of alcohol which is a poison and damaging to people. Full of arguably very lustful behaviour.

How many fights, stabbings, and sexual assaults all happen in nightclubs?

Our religion teaches us to avoid this completely.

I find that post quite chilling.

no wonder people are becoming more right wing/reform orientated.

15 years on Mumsnet I’ve never been told it’s wrong/immoral to go to a nightclub.

I hadn’t heard of it but I just read every story. Heart breaking.

There’s dressing modestly and dressing ‘appropriately’. A lass (late teens) at Church yesterday was in those shorts that look like the PE knickers I wore in 1976 and a bra type strappy top with all her torso exposed. she honestly looked like she was in her underwear. Appropriate for church? Not in my book, appropriate for hanging out at the local fete, sure.

Weird post

My religion teaches me what is right and what is wrong. I would never set foot in a nightclub.

But I do know what they are and I know many men and young boys have a jolly good time "dancing and sweating" in a shirt and trousers

She didn’t say it was a Muslim country. She’s still entitled to an opinion though, like everyone
else.

This isn’t a Muslim country.

most young people have gone to a nightclub at least once.

it’s hot and you are dancing.

dressing appropriately = scant clothing

As a Muslim I would not visit a nightclub.

You don’t have to drink to go to a club.

To me it's not about how much skin is covered, it's about self respect and that's also about how you carry yourself.

You can wear a top with a cleavage down to your belly button or have your bum hanging out of high cut shorts, but the fact is that is that if you have enough boob to have a cleavage, that will be presenting a sexual image to others.

Do you want to be seen in a way that reduces you to one layer or do you want to be seen as the entire human being you are?

The choice belongs to everyone as an individual.

🙄

I have no desire to see another woman's tits and bare arse when I go out for a drink . . .

At the gym we wipe down the seats on the equipment after use . . .

Even nudists carry towels everywhere for hygiene reasons . . .

As part of my religion both men and woman and told to cover up certain parts of their body.

To be honest I’m all in favour of dressing modestly for both sexes, but seeing as men refuse to do it I don’t think women should be expected to either. I would love nothing better than to not see swathes of men stripped to the waist every summer in shops, pubs etc but that’s not going to end, and I don’t like the double standard.