To think kids aren’t the centre of the universe and shouldn’t be treated like they are?

OP done a runner

I mean... Do we really centre them?

Babies "have to be" sleep trained so both parents can function at work. They often go to nursery earlier and earlier or wrap-around, doing longer days than a lot of adults can manage. Given tablets as babies "so they don't disturb people". Even the @BeSnappyBird original post was a bit skewed - the baby didn't ask to go to a restaurant, the adults wanted to go so took the baby despite them being tired etc.

Every single time we go to a restaurant without fail. Its not kids that spoil it. Its adults drinking and thinking every other person wants to hear everything they have to say.

If my child was so tired they were being disruptive I'd take them out for their sake. Get them tucked up in bed to sleep.

Children are important to society or should be.

Creating healthy well socialised humans is a long term goal, not a short term one.

Too many people here want short term gains - quiet, obedient children to the harm of long term ability to self regulate and function in society.

This is not incompatible with children being taken to restaurants when they are of an appropriate age and with parents who can manage their behaviour appropriately

Most of what I see is a result of poor behaviour by adults, which leads to poorly socialised children.

Absolutely this^ with bells on!

There is a balance to be struck so that children are brought up with self confidence and good self esteem but they are also taught to think about how their behaviour affects others.

So before leaving home to go to a restaurant you brief the child about appropriate behaviour. “We sit at the table quietly because the waiting staff are carrying trays of hot food and drink and you could get hurt if you run around. Also, we don’t shout because other diners are trying to enjoy their meals in peace.” You can role-play it if they don’t understand. You remind them again about how to behave when you arrive at the restaurant before going in. And then once more when you are sat at the table,

Once at the table, or the side of the pool, or the play ground, you as a parent have to sacrifice your own enjoyment a little to be present with your dc and interact with them. Don’t just sit back and absolve all responsibility for your offspring’s behaviour. Waiting staff, instructors, and other parents are not there to baby-sit your child.

And if all goes belly up and your child has a tantrum, then you pack up and leave, even if it’s half way through something enjoyable. They don’t get to ruin it for everyone else.

The same applies to shops, theatres, school plays, etc. Even in doctor’s waiting rooms or on public transport you can usually get up and remove them from that immediate space for a few minutes until they have calmed down. And if it’s obvious that a child finds a certain scenario difficult to handle; then you practice in small bursts until they can.

And as a pp said, you do your children no favours if you bring them up oblivious to the feelings of others.

As someone who just had to navigate a kid riding a scooter round the (small, narrow-aisled) supermarket whilst the mother did her shopping entirely oblivious to everyone trying to dive out of the way of her little darling before they got whacked, I wholeheartedly agree.

I hear what you're saying and we've all experienced bad days when our children have played us up in public. The crucial thing is what you do about it! If a parent is seen to be trying to control a child and failing, this will elicit far more sympathy and understanding than a parent ignoring their child's anti-social behaviour and expecting everyone else to just tolerate it.

I was in a large shop once when my 18mth old and 3 yr old both kicked off at the same time because I said no to whatever it was they wanted. I didn't give in to the children though, I just grabbed the buggy and the 3 yr old's hand and couldn't get out of there fast enough. There's no way I'd have let them carry on regardless. I felt humiliated and exhausted and these days I'll always offer to help a struggling parent with a buggy or bags etc.

I was almost always a 'single parent' when out with mine because their father worked long hours so I had to learn to manage them by myself. I think most of us can tell by a parent's actions whether they're trying to cope and just having a bad day or whether they are immune to their child's behaviour and its impact on others.

I read a quote once, I wish I could remember where. It said that children should be at the centre of family life, but not be the centre of family life.

You haven't given any examples so I'll give one that happened only last night.

We're away with friends and friends DS10 DECIDED at about 11PM whilst we were all sat chatting, catching up outside when he starts shouting ALRIGHT EVERYONE SHUT UP THIS IS IMPORTANT. Before proceeding to read off the 7 A4 laminated sheets of rules that came with the lodge. If anyone talked 'over' him he told them to be quiet because 'I'M TALKING'. One of the rules was 'Not to behave in a manner that is likely to cause irritation to other guests' to which about 3 of the group mumbled 'Like you' and we giggled like school kids before being told to shut up again.
The mother is lovely but just looked on with stars in her eyes.

Exhausting.

I think some parents also suffer from the 'well, this is the way I did it and my child is perfectly behaved, so this MUST be the way to do it' frame of mind. Some kids respond very well to being reasoned with and having things explained. Some kids... don't.

I had both types. Two feral kids who didn't listen, wouldn't have behaved any better if I'd carefully nurtured them through childhood. Two who were Okayish but needed yelling at sometimes, and one who was an absolute dream.

Oddly enough, one of the feral ones is now an accountant as is one of the okayish ones.

I don't think there is any need, I am sure we can all picture the circumstances

I'm smirking at the few hit dogs hollering on this thread.
OP, you are correct.
My being in my daughter's corner should never come at the cost of people merely tolerating or even hating her being around them.

And thankfully for society, I did not bring up a child to adulthood who thinks that my love and support for her means condoning fuckry because of some warped notion of unconditional love.

hahah not quite. I didn't say it as loud as I wanted to.
Some of them did giggle and there was a 'hear hear'.

Who’s kids?

And the rest of the passengers burst into awestruck applause, no doubt. And started a petition to name the airport after you.

Children should be seen and not heard. And not even seen all the time. In the evening they should be in bed.

Completely agree

Small children don't actually need to be in restaurants at all. They'd prefer a picnic really

I fully agree with you.
I was once sat behind a brat child who hollered and tantrummed for an entire 2.5 hour flight (and no it wasn't a young baby with ear issues). No attempt was made to shut him up. When we arrived he had stopped, and the other simperingly said oh he's tiiiiired while stroking the horrid little weasel's hair. I couldn't help myself - replying 'yes so are the rest of us on this plane now' before walking off.

They’re not, and some kids are just little shits who are poorly parented. I will say though, I am lucky enough to have a DP who is hands on. We’re out for dinner and DS kicks off? DP can go and deal with him, me and DD can stay there. If DD starts kicking off I can take her and he can stay with DS. Some people are single parents (or worse have useless husbands) and I imagine that makes it way harder. Especially if you’ve got more than one child. I’ve seen some women look like they’re about to cry because their kids are running a muck. I don’t think they’re all bad parents, some days it’s just hard and those are the days your kids will act up the most.

Yes, screaming kids are a pain. No, I don’t love it when kids run around the restaurant - I especially hated this when I worked at a pub. But excluding children form places excludes mothers (disproportionately single mothers) and they already have enough issues. Even the best parents who have well behaved kids will have horror story days. At the end of the day if you really don’t want kids running around spoiling your day go to an adults only hotel or something.

@Shetlands and then they get to university where they...

• Take much longer to learn to share, wait their turn and wait until an adult is ready to give them attention;
• Constantly interrupt others, including adults;
• Need to be told instructions personally because they don't listen to group instructions;
• Take much longer to learn to regulate their emotions;
• Wind parents up to complain on their behalf

Not so long ago, I was out with a friend and one of us commented on how well behaved a child was being in a shop. Then we observed that when we were kids, the children that people commented on were the badly behaved ones. Now it’s the well behaved ones that stand out. All too often, parents want to be their child’s friend rather than parent them. And far too many parents seem to think it’s ok for their child to disturb everyone else hour after hour, rather than saying ‘ok, let’s have a bit of quiet now, other people are trying to enjoy their gardens too’. And that shrieking and screaming in the course of play in crowded urban environments is ok. I don’t believe children should be seen and not heard, but adults should be able to be heard (and hear themselves think) alongside them.

Your post being tedious isn’t a reason to ruin the internet for everyone else…

Totally agree. I’ve posted on a previous thread that when my sons were small children how I didn’t stand by the front door negotiating whether we should leave the house or not. I’m the adult. I’m the parent. I’m in charge. We do as I’m saying.

Oh god this all over

Only on here do I see such squeamishness about raising your voice at kids, or god forbid shouting. Yes sometimes parents shout at kids, sometimes you need to. Sometimes you need to tell them off and show disapproval, they are not the equals of grown ups.

All I ever see on here is mealy mouthed 'you need to apologise to your child' posts.

This is why children are so anxious and lack resilience, they see a lack of confidence and authority in their care givers. Be strong, consistent and fair but be the grown up in charge.