MPs vote to decriminalise abortion

A woman has a right to decide they don’t want to be ‘responsible’ for a pregnancy and abort- a legal option one which also says women can make that choice

This actually doesn't make sense:

Why do you think women are more valuable than a foetus?

Because it is her body

That doesn't equate any measure of value - yes, she has a body, but why is that body more valuable than a foetus?

Who has a responsibility for the foetus in any woman's body? Is there anyone?

Because it’s her body

Why?

I’m not winding you up I’m 100% pro choice in every instance. A women’s rights trump a fetus’s which is why abortion is legal

I do think a woman is worth more than a fetus

Yikes

I'm not sure if you are winding me up, but ok, that is more grave than I actually thought

It's good to know though.

@hamstersarse If you don't want an abortion, you don't have one.

Or do you just want to take away bodily autonomy?

You've changed what you said though - you are now saying 'choice' when what we have been talking about is that you think women are worth more than the foetus. That's different

What responsibility do you think a woman does have to a foetus? Is it none

yup

Fine I’m happy to be considered narcissistic for wanting women to have a choice

Want? Is that any better?

What responsibility do you think a woman does have to a foetus? Is it none?

When does life begin then? The moment of conception? Six weeks? 12? 24?

the woman is alive at all these stages - at what point is her life worth less?

Narcissism involves an inflated sense of self-importance (“I matter more than you”)

So....yeah, narcissism

Needs then it’s all semantics- if a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant she shouldn’t have to be - anything else is forcing pregnancy on her

What is this idea of 'forcing any woman to give birth against her wishes'?

'Wishes'?

That word feels… flimsy. Casual. Like this is a matter of preference, like ordering tea instead of coffee. But we're talking about life — creating it, sustaining it, being responsible for it, and yes, ending it. That is not a 'wish' — that’s the most serious terrain we have.

You can’t build a society on wishes.

Also odd that you find caring about the needs of women and girls and putting them first in decisions about their bodies as narcissism

Your morals are your own, you are welcome to them. Nobody else has to live by them

yes this! My ‘morals’ will always place the needs of the woman above those of a fetus

but I’m 100% pro choice

it isn't comparable, there are birds that will eat their own young (like the night jar as proven by being filmed on Spring Watch this year) and others who will abandon or kill or eat their own babies if it becomes too much to raise them, or just reabsorb pregnancies like Rabbits.

There is a test of morals from Kant:

"What if everyone did this?"
If the action you are describing was done by everyone, would the world still function ethically or sensibly? If not, the action is morally wrong.

If every woman put themselves before a foetus, I am not sure it would be a functional or ethical society. It only functions currently because a lot of women put their foetus above themselves.

Not morally bankrupt at all - it’s considering the needs of the woman, her circumstances and possibly her existing children - forcing any woman to give birth against her wishes is morally bankrupt

It isn’t a justification, those are simple facts.

I will put myself above a foetus every single time, because my existing children are more important than a hypothetical one.

Your morals are your own, you are welcome to them. Nobody else has to live by them.

It's not a great justification though is it?

It is pretty dysfunctional to put yourself above a child - there are obvious circumstances in nature when parents have to sacrifice children, but it is extreme and rare. Birds sit for days on end incubating eggs and will go hungry or draw predators toward themselves to protect their eggs...the eggs are the equivalent of the foetus in this scenario.

I can't help but go back to narcissism when people say "Women come first, always"