MPs vote to decriminalise abortion

So is abortion still a criminal offence if the mother uses a backstreet DIY procedure on herself past 24 weeks?

Surely any at home abortion past this gestation isn’t following medical protocol as it’s not allowed, so women may still face charges if they don’t carry out their own abortions the “right way”. Seems like it’ll cause more confusion.

So is abortion still a criminal offence if the mother uses a backstreet DIY procedure on herself past 24 weeks?

Surely any at home abortion past this gestation isn’t following medical protocol as it’s not allowed, so women may still face charges if they don’t carry out their own abortions the “right way”. Seems like it’ll cause more confusion.

Of course, a woman’s body is her own, and her autonomy is deeply important. But, abortion involves not just the woman’s body, but a second human life. It can be argued that from the moment of conception, the foetus is a distinct organism with its own DNA, heartbeat, and trajectory toward birth. So the decision to abort isn’t just about one body — it involves ending another human life. You may not agree that it is a human life, but that is really where the heart of this debate lies - i.e. it is subjective.

That is also not to say that women are 'incubators' — but then it is also true that pregnancy is a deeply meaningful and biologically thing and in many other circumstances society prioritises protecting the vulnerable - it is not unheard of to look after vulnerability and this is the ultimate of those scenarios!

In my view, it’s about balancing rights — the woman’s and the unborn child’s — our biology as women is not straightforward - it is very hard to argue that we can just say we come first, always - there are (unfortunately!) other considerations literally because of our biology - that is the burden of being female.

Also stabbing a baby to death is not how abortion is performed so no idea why you think that’s relevant to decriminalising abortion

And that isn't abortion, and thus continues to be illegal

A minority kill their babies shortly after birth, who’s to say they wouldn’t do it during childbirth? Perhaps if they thought they would be free from any criminal investigation.

Not common but not impossible either.

It was during childbirth when she started (allegedly as case ongoing).

Those who do carry out DIY abortion at full term but not during labour are unlikely to be following medical protocol, as official routes are no longer allowed without medical need.

So she's going to have a cryptic pregnancy (which only happens in roughly 1 in 2,500 pregnancies), go into labour, decide she doesn't want to have a baby, somehow manage - again, while in labour - to get her hands on a needle containing some kind of fatal substance, wait until the baby is in the birth canal, then put her hand up her own vagina in order to inject the baby (crucially managing not to inject herself), and then pass this off as an abortion? Or she's going to use 'a tool' to do the job instead? As in, insert a tool into her vagina while she's in labour in order to kill the baby?

You're right - I absolutely don't believe this is possible, or something that exists outside of the insane landscape of your mind.

And you think there are enough women who would have cryptic pregnancies, and then decide once in labour to kill the baby, for it to be worth drafting the legislation for the specific purpose of preventing this outcome, even if the result of that is that many, many more women who have still births or late stage abortions face the trauma of unjustified criminal prosecution?

Backstreet abortion has been legalised.
Women will be able to abort up to birth at home.
How will they be expected to dispose of the infant's body?

I agree.

Personally I think abortion is wrong in ALL circumstances save for serious medical issues for either the baby or the mother.

Of course it’s relevant. People keep mentioning it.

A mother stabbing a newborn is a different thing all together

I agree.

Personally I think abortion is wrong in ALL circumstances save for serious medical issues for either the baby or the mother.

It would seem so. A self induced abortion up to birth is now to be legal. It's horrific.

It would seem so. A self induced abortion up to birth is now to be legal. It's horrific.

This. I wholeheartedly agree. People forget that it’s an actual babies life

sorry has the limit to have an abortion changed?

Perhaps the woman doesn’t know she was pregnant so only takes action once she realises what has happened during childbirth.

I didn’t want to go into the specifics because I didn’t feel it necessary but as you’ve asked several times and believe it not possible, a woman could end her baby’s life during labour by fatally injecting the baby once accessible, using a tool to fatally harm the baby, amongst other possibilities. Rare but not impossible.

Does this count as an abortion as she’s still pregnant so therefore totally decriminalised, or a potential criminal offence because she is in labour which changes things? As you say, anyone having an abortion at say 40 weeks without medical need, isn’t going to be able to go down the official channels to get one anyway, so is there a difference between the two?

I don’t think it’s really relevant about whether this has previously happened, more whether this is now decriminalised if this does happen.

Looks there is a current case going through in the US, the question is whether this would now warrant a criminal investigation if it happened in the UK or not https://people.com/mother-allegedly-stabbed-newborn-death-letter-opener-giving-birth-11695536#:~:text=Officer%20Melissa%20Yates%20of%20the,to%20the%20hospital%20for%20treatment.

So your stance is that if a woman carries out a DIY abortion whilst pregnant at 40 weeks that’s decriminalised, but if a woman carries out a DIY abortion once labour has started at 38 weeks then it’s no longer decriminalised?

Of course this is not what happens in the vast majority of cases by any means, but clarity is needed in terms of what is decriminalised and these things are not always clear cut.

Can you link to an instance of a woman carrying out a DIY abortion during Labour please?

So your stance is that if a woman carries out a DIY abortion whilst pregnant at 40 weeks that’s decriminalised, but if a woman carries out a DIY abortion once labour has started at 38 weeks then it’s no longer decriminalised?

Of course this is not what happens in the vast majority of cases by any means, but clarity is needed in terms of what is decriminalised and these things are not always clear cut.

So your stance is that if a woman carries out a DIY abortion whilst pregnant at 40 weeks that’s decriminalised, but if a woman carries out a DIY abortion once labour has started at 38 weeks then it’s no longer decriminalised?

Of course this is not what happens in the vast majority of cases by any means, but clarity is needed in terms of what is decriminalised and these things are not always clear cut.

sorry has the limit to have an abortion changed?

Yes that the normal reaction of any woman suddenly experiencing stomach pain and such - not to seek medical advice when it start but to wait until you see the head then think - totally rationally and with malice of for thought- I’ll kill this baby