Did women ever stand a chance?

Jordan turned out to be a massive disappointment though didn't he, as the series went on - when Angela finally got with him he was actually really boring and a bit thick. Which I guess was the point. I never rewatched Heartbreak High and can't exactly remember how Rivers' character developed, but in my memory he was funny and interesting as well as being angry and sexy. Sigh....

Thanks for posting this, I am saving the thread as it’s basically developed into a discussion of what I want to write my MA thesis on!

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Yep. Now it’s the far left as well. Basically many men hate women, and sadly most (I think most) women just can’t see that.

There's no story without the 'bad boy', though! Bridget Jones (or Jane Austen's Pride & Prejudice), for example. The interest hinges on us all knowing that Mark Darcy (Mr Darcy) is ultimately the more sensible choice but he's boring. It's all about the fun, the heartbreak, the highs and lows along the way to finally the realisation that the good guy isn't boring and unlikable after all.

Paw patrol and Ben and Holly are sexist, it's everywhere.

So talking animals in children's TV is perfectly ok bit fictional shows or movies older children, teens and adults is an issue?

I remember feeling really gutted at the end of MSCL when it was hinted that she might be looking at Brian differently - definitely agree about the incel vibes. Jordan was hot but really boring. A much more satisfying ending would have been if she shrugged both of them off and realised she didn't actually need a boyfriend at all.

Actually I've just remembered that my ultimate teenage bad boy crush was Rivers from Heartbreak High - now he was well fit and had hidden depths too 😅I would love to know what Mumsnet made of him (and his raunchy relationship with his teacher!)

I feel like My So-Called Life made it pretty obvious that Jordan was v v handsome but otherwise unsatisfactory. At the end, he gets Angela via an apology that Brian wrote for him, and it’s hinted that maybe Angela has realised that. So I didn’t think the ending was affirming Jordan being the ‘right’ choice, it’s more about Angela’s immaturity and making dumb choices based on the priorities of a fifteen-year-old.

I think in the DVD commentary or an interview the writer talked about how Angela would see Brian very differently in a couple of years (and how that was mirrored by the actor who played him cutting his hair shorter and growing up a bit over the course of the show and offscreen, girls were starting to notice him and he was gaining more confidence). A bit like how Angela pivots away from her best friend Sharon and towards Rayanne at the start of the show, but has fallen out with Rayanne and pivoted back to Sharon by the end. I think we’re meant to see Jordan as a temporary rebellious experiment like her friendship with Rayanne, but at the end of the day she’ll prob pivot back to someone like Brian who is middle class and school smart and can offer her a future Jordan can’t. So in some ways you could see it as her using Jordan for some temporary thrills rather than the other way round. Let’s be honest, she would probably be pretty bored by him in a couple of years.

Personally I got slight incel/entitlement vibes from Brian so I’m not necessarily very keen on him as an alternative either, but that was how the writer seemed to be thinking about it.

I don't think I ever really thought I should be like anything to make sure a boy or man liked me. I do my own thing and find the men who like that.

I have to defend Grease a bit. She changes herself (superficially) to attract him at the end but he changes first, trying to be like her. And he’s not really a bad boy - but the unfair treatment of women is confronted in Rizzo’s storyline and in her song.

Don’t disagree with the general point though.

I agree with your central point although not with all your examples (I'd argue certainly Dirty Dancing and maybe Grease too are actually about young women throwing off family (paternal) expectations and becoming independent, not simply saving bad boys).

Lots of children's books are very bad for this, even modern ones like Twilight for example.

Isn't it all about taming the bad boy? I'm not like the other girls. I can fix him.

Totally agree with this - Pacey was the lovely, decent guy, whereas Dawson was a whiny manbaby who thought he owned Joey and she owed him sex/a relationship.

No, it really is that simple. I could be told a thousand times in a thousand different ways that Trump is a good guy but I still wouldn't believe it because I am able to make up my own mind on things and other women can too. Of course they can.

Because I've got a brain and know what I think and feel.

It certainly made me think as a teenager and young adult that if I was nice and sweet and kind and didn't get upset about things he'd eventually Pick Me. I thought patience was a virtue. They didn't Pick Me. And looking back and looking at them now thank Christ they didn't. I wouldn't pick them.

Luke is never a love interest for anyone.

But he'd also have been a far better bet for anyone as a partner than Han Solo.

I reluctantly got rid of the dvds a while back but kept the 2 hour finale special. It streams on itv or ch4 now and then. Always was Team Pacey. I love the episode when ? compares him and Dawson to Han Solo and Luke Skywalker..though I suppose that pair also somewhat fall into what the op is talking about it. Luke is never a love interest for anyone.

Yes.

A lot of literature is based around the idea that women can tame the beast.

It also gives the impression that a man's character is/can be formed by the woman he is with and that men don't know their own minds.

Which could be argued as part of the reason why women feel responsible for keeping relationships together and making them work. For some, a man's poor behaviour is a reflection of the woman.