To be concerned about my 8yo’s complete lack of empathy?

Are you the OP with a different name?

@Brighdaytime sounds a bit like my son at that age and he was later diagnosed with Autism. We laugh about it now but i am completely chaotic, change my mind like the wind, say we are having pizza then change it to fish and chips, drove my poor child insane but i couldn't really understand.Obviously i do now and like i say we can laugh about it now he's an adult

I think the single best parenting lesson I learned early was to try not to mention stuff that wasn't definitely going to happen to my kid. It's not always avoidable and things do change of course but there's no point in being upset with a tired hangry kid who thought he was going to the park and then is told he isn't.

Agree with lots of the comments about immature brains and processing and you could have handled it differently for sure but would also point out that ND kids have a very strong sense of justice and fairness and find it difficult to to cope with a last minute change of plan. It’s worth keeping in mind if this is something you see on a regular basis. It’s not a lack of empathy it’s just not fair and sometimes that’s the issue.

My suggestion would be if this happened again - at about 7pm,say to them 'we can either stay at the disco a bit longer or go to the park, but we can't do both. Which would you prefer?'. Then they are prepared and feel involved in the choice.

I do get your frustration, from your side you had done lots of lovely things and 1 thing doesn't go your sons way and he gets very upset and it feels like he is really ungrateful. But from his side, he may have not been as bothered about all those lovely things and the park was the biggest thing in his head. Sometimes we, with the best intentions,do things we think they will love rather than asking them what they want. It makes me think about a recent conversation with my just turned 6 years old DD2.
Me: grandma would like to know what you would like for your 6th birthday?
DD2: I would like grandma to take me to the park on my own without DD1 so I can have her all to myself
Me: no, I meant what present would you like
DD2: spending time with grandma is my best present, I have lots of toys already but just 1 Grandma and she's the best

What we see as important can be very different to what our children see as important.

I think you have been given a hard time on here as you were just trying to do your best. But maybe in future try and look at choices through your children's eyes.

Going by your op it sounds like it’s you who lacks empathy.

You told him that you were going to the park then you didn’t. Ok, stuff happens. But it would have been a good idea to explain to your son that you weren’t going to be able to go to the park, but that you’d go tomorrow instead.

Also if you’re away and he’s had lots of treats he could be feeling overwhelmed/over excited. Often they do end up having tantrums on seemingly ‘fun’ days.

Children have a very strong sense of justice.

Agree that sometimes having a whole load of exciting fun in quick succession can lead to a kind of emotional crash. When that happens all you can do is get them to bed and remember that tomorrow is another day.

Also, I always find that the more fun my child has, the more likely she is to have a tantrum at the end of the day. It’s just the disappointment of the day ending. For yourself, it might be helpful if you build that into your expectations so that you aren’t caught off guard when emotions are high on days youve put lots of effort into. It doesn’t mean the whole day has been a failure or that the children are ungrateful. It really is just one of those things!

It sounds like your kid is one where you have to over communicate your reasoning.

I would strongly encourage you not to guilt trip him by saying you bought him an ice cream, what about my feelings etc. Ironically, that can actually cause children to shut down their empathy as they learn that their empathy can be used against them.

I think you are getting a hard time here from some posters, it's hard to know what to do sometimes and that's ok. My nearly 8 year old DS would have reacted the exact same way, he needs to be prepped well in advance of any changes to plans but obviously that's not always possible. Apologising to a child who is having a meltdown feels a bit problematic as well. Maybe you can talk to him again today when everything is a bit calmer.
At least take some comfort from the fact your son doesnt lack empathy and is actually totally normal!

I don't think this was partying it up at Pascha, there's obviously a clubhouse where they are with family evening entertainment!

I agree with PPs - you're not understanding your 8 year old. You could have referenced the nice stuff you'd done for them in a 'don't let one thing spoil our lovely day' talk down, but expecting good behaviour on the back of it is massively unreasonable.

8 was a tricky age with my ds. You feel they should be old enough to get things, show gratitude etc but they just aren't there yet.

I think in that situation I'd have (tried to!) allow the space for him to be upset, apologised for the change of plan/forgetting about the park and said it's ok to be upset and would he like a bit of space or a hug and for me to stay with him. I know how frustrating it is and that it's so so tempting to want to say "but I've done all this for you, does none of that count for anything? Why can't you be grateful?" But in my experience just letting them be upset helps them get over it sooner. I said a lot of "it's ok to cry" to him.

My ds started saying he was sorry if he had been rude/unkind and being grateful naturally maybe around 10 I think. Just keep modelling it (thanking them for a lovely day, apologising if you've been snappy etc) and it'll come.

Sometimes plans have to change for whatever reason. Sounds like they wanted to stay and wanted to go to the park so can’t have it all ways.

Let him have his tantrum, tell him if he stops it we’ll go to the park tomorrow, if he doesn’t, we won’t.

I’ve been through this with my own kids, my son was a nightmare for meltdowns and tantrums when things didn’t go his way.

Now he’s a bright, well adjusted 11 year old who can cope with changes. All this pandering and you let him down etc is nonsense. Sometimes things change and can’t happen. It’s life, get over it.

But I’m very much a no nonsense, shit happens deal with it type parent.

If reminding him of the nice things you've done doesn't work in this situation then I'd stop doing it. That one doesn't work on me either.

He might be neurodiverse and doesn't understand. My middle daughter cannot cope with a change in plan, if i say something i must fulfill it, a change in plan will result in a meltdown.

Totally agree, it was part of wider picture that added up to an unhappy childhood. Now that we are grown ups one child has no contact with her, one has very infrequent visits and one went no contact for years, had therapy and now has regular contact because ultimately she’s elderly and alone, but knows the type of personality they are dealing with.
Parenthood is tough and I do a lot for my children for which given their ages they never seem grateful for.
I know plenty of adults who would be annoyed at something they were looking forward to being cancelled by someone else, expecting an 8 year old to suck it up and not be upset is unrealistic.

@Brighdaytime you’re getting a hard time here and as per a lot of people haven’t read your update.

Sounds like you’re doing a great job as a single parent which is no mean feat in itself. DS has a meltdown which was unexpected and things got out of hand. It’s really easy to come onto mumsnet and explain all the ways to gentle parent when you’re not in the situation yourself especially when you were not anticipating that reaction. He’s 8 not 4 so I would expect that most 8 year olds could cope with a change in plan like this so perhaps you’re not used to constantly trying to regulate yourself in the midst of a meltdown or have all the right tools immediately ready to go.

I’m going against the grain here but don’t think you were being manipulative at all by explaining that you’d done some nice things that’s day in order to calm him down and see the bigger picture. Unfortunately it didn’t work. Obviously more context is needed in exactly how you said it but from what you said in your OP it doesn’t sound like you were making your relationship transactional at all. Personally I found it quite anchoring when this happened to me as a child, it helped me gain perspective. I have quite a different perspective anyway as both my parents were born in a different country with very different cultures and I was reminded regularly about how lucky I was. I didn’t find this manipulative and think I was actually really grateful to my parents.

If this is a one off be kind to yourself and your son - these things happen. No one is perfect and every parent has shit days (no matter what they say on mumsnet). If you feel like this is repeated behaviour and he’s very rigid/ emotionally dysregulated when plans change you could do some reading on how to manage this yourself and then speak to school to see if they’ve had any issues / concerns ?

its not easy and we don’t always get it right, but you love your kids and are doing an amazing job for them on your own - even when it’s tough - remember you’re doing a great job

This all sounds pretty normal for a child dealing with a disappointment. Of course I absolutely understand the logic of your decision, but to an 8 year old it just feels like they're being deprived of a treat they were promised. It takes a long time for children to learn how to tolerate disappointment without feeling really aggrieved and hard done by.

Lots of kids really struggle with a change of plan. They can also have a really strong sense of justice which might to us look misplaced but is very real to them. He feels very strongly that he was wronged because he was told one thing and it didn't happen. He can't rationalise that there were good reasons for your decision because he's still developing the skills that allow him to have that flexibility.

Some kids struggle more than others, especially if they are neurodivergent, but all children have to learn how to process these feelings and it takes time.

Talking about the other nice things you've done for him won't help him process the emotion, and it just makes your relationship seem transactional. Next time try approaching with empathy and helping him name the feelings - 'you're really disappointed because I said we would go to the park and now the plan has changed. That has made you really angry. I get it. I get disappointed and angry too when exciting plans change. Let's make a new plan for when we're next going to the park.'

He isn't immediately going to beam like Pollyanna and say 'thank you mother I feel so much better!'. He will still stew and be mean and feel hard done by. But if you keep practicing showing empathy for his feelings, acknowledging that they're valid, holding boundaries and giving him better tools for expressing and processing his feelings, over time he will learn to be more resilient to disappointment.

"i used to hate it as a kid when my Mum reminded me of all the things she had done for me, most of which were standard parenting, it all becomes very transactional ie I did this for you, so you should be grateful."

Yes, it's very manipulative. And borderline abusive imo. The OP seems very distant from her children and cannot connect and empathise with them. I agree with a previous poster that she needs parenting classes. And an empathy chip inserted. Her poor son! He shows more awareness and reasoning skills than she does.

He is 8…….. you told him you were taking him to the park which he was obviously looking forward to and then you back-tracked and denied him that visit to the park. Little wonder that he got upset and struggled to comprehend your reasoning.
He must be so confused by you attempting to justify your actions based on all the treats he had received that day. If you aren’t sure if an activity will happen then don’t plant that seed in a child’s mind and then pull the rug from under them……that is cruel.
I get that everyone has to face disappointment in life but there is a gentler way to explain plans……..maybe consider saying “if we go to xxxxxxx for a shorter time we could then go to yyyyyy and have some fun there” !
Above all, talk to your children, communicate with them……they’re not mind readers.

Very gently he is 8 years old and was over tired and disappointed.
i used to hate it as a kid when my Mum reminded me of all the things she had done for me, most of which were standard parenting, it all becomes very transactional ie I did this for you, so you should be grateful.
In your situation I would have taken them to the park but explained you wouldn’t be able to stay very long because you had stayed too long at the disco.
Your son simply took you at your word and then struggled with the change of plan, that isn’t a lack of empathy.

I agree with PPs. Parenting is tiring but try not to blame tbem
when you change the plans.

@Brighdaytime I think your last sentence explains it: you're tired because you have the children on your own. Therefore you expected an "adult" comprehension of your 8 year old son and judge hos lack of it and disappointment as him lacking empathy. You were the one lacking empathy; his response to sudden change of plans was pretty typical of an 8 year old.

Do you have family/friends around you? Because it does sound like you are in need of someone recognising your needs, which is legitimate, but you can not expect that from your children yet, they are too young. If not, maybe therapy could be useful ; a place where you get to focus on you. Because I get it; it's hard when you're on your own and nobody is there to validate your feelings. But do not put that on your children, you have to find it elsewhere.

Sending a virtual hug 💗

He’s just annoyed because you lied to him about taking him to the park nothing to do with not having empathy

At the minimum you need some parenting classes, if you can do that, and you would greatly benefit from a therapist.

Listing all the "nice" things you do for a kid is both a waste of time and a manipulative tactic.

Why not give him a hug and listen to what is bothering him? Why not apologize for having changed the plans he was looking forward to?? Why not leave earlier so the kids are not so exhausted they go into a meltdown.

With children at 8 & 7 you should be good at this stuff by now.