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AIBU?

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C8H10N4O2 · 17/06/2025 12:14

inkognitha · 17/06/2025 12:10

@C8H10N4O2
I am well aware this abuse targeted as cruelly and unfairly children from all communities.

I wrote and meant "about the neglect of the white (ex)working classes" as a specific point.

In general, I find this group is very poorly represented and considered in British society. The government strategy to deal with "communities" and "community leaders" (where is the scrutiny or the democracy in that?) after destroying the original working-class communities has made them disappear from sight from public and political interest. That's what I meant.

Why do you assume that only white WC communities are treated in this way? Or that the communities are invisible?

Classism is alive and well and applies to WC minorities as well such as, in this case, the Mirpuri women.

inkognitha · 17/06/2025 12:10

C8H10N4O2 · 17/06/2025 11:50

The victims in Rotherham were not all white, many were Mipuri women who like the white girls were generally WC with vulnerabilities and regarded as disposable by the gangs. They have written and spoken about their own experiences and the added difficulties they have accessing support but largely been ignored by people only interested in the race of that particular gang’s abusers.

I have no time for La Toynbee’s particular brand of smug “do as I say, luxury beliefs” brand of MC liberalism but its just as ridiculous to claim that this is specifically a Mipuri Pakistani problem and I have zero time for the opportunists from the other side.

The abuse of children and trafficking of young women by gangs isn’t just a crime of sexual abuse its also organised crime. Organised crime usually does have a cultural/family group at core, be they North London Albanian gangs, Liverpool/Glasgow sectarian based gangs, the old Yardies in South London, the East End families like the Krays or the Italian Mafia.

Most of the convictions from grooming gangs have been white, in Rotherham they were Mipuri Pakistani groups, others have been of different ethnic origins.

The culture is relevant to organised crime as it dictates how specific gangs recruit and control members, the groups they link up with and sometimes the areas of “business”. It also often dictates tactics they can use to suppress the legal and welfare systems.

So the culture of the Rotherham gangs is relevant but mainly to the Rotherham gangs. The culture of East London white gangs is also relevant to how they operate. Studying the culture of how such gangs operate is relevant but has rarely translated into reductions in gang crime. Perhaps it would be better to look hard at the professional classes who in each case have failed the victims.

I would like to see the politicians, offices of the law and social services who dismissed the girls and turned a blind eye prosecuted. I’d like to see the same happen to those involved in ignoring victims of other gangs because the common feature across them is classism, not only race - largely the professional classes tasked with the protection of these girls just saw them as poor, unimportant and disposable.

Edited

@C8H10N4O2
I am well aware this abuse targeted as cruelly and unfairly children from all communities.

I wrote and meant "about the neglect of the white (ex)working classes" as a specific point.

In general, I find this group is very poorly represented and considered in British society. The government strategy to deal with "communities" and "community leaders" (where is the scrutiny or the democracy in that?) after destroying the original working-class communities has made them disappear from sight from public and political interest. That's what I meant.

OP posts:
cumbriaisbest · 17/06/2025 12:04

ERthree · 17/06/2025 10:49

I think the victims should decide but of course nobody wants to listen to white girls because they will name their attackers and the name won't be john Smith. There is nothing racist about the truth. Those that try and close down communication be screeching racism normally have a lot to hide.

I think ticking away in the background is the terror of the idea that there will be another Southport or another Ballymena.
My understanding is that an enquiry has been done and none of the recommendations followed through. This according to Maggie Oliver.
Why not throw the meagre resources at actually doing something? Listening to those with lived experience.

C8H10N4O2 · 17/06/2025 11:57

notnorman · 17/06/2025 10:09

Sure Nazir Afsal wouldn’t be of that opinion if it was Muslim girls and white men

It was Muslim girls and its often white gangs,. Afsal repeatedly went out on a limb on this issue and took huge amounts of stick for it from a liberal establishment and also received death threats. Phillips has also been on the receiving end of such threats. Each of them were significant in keeping the cases alive when their own leaderships wanted them to shut up.

I don’t know the context or accuracy of that quote but its fair to say that not all victims feel the same. It does retraumatise victims to revisit, many want action anyway, some don’t. On balance I’ve heard more who do want a proper review than those who don’t but I would like to see some money put into supporting victims during the inquiry.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 11:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

inkognitha · 17/06/2025 11:52

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 11:25

I see you're not denying your inflammatory views.

I see the goalpost has moved again, how surprising is that?

Between the whataboutery, absymal logical skills, lying, fudging, obfuscation, lack of empathy, simplistic pigeonholing (not sorry to be more complex than you expected to, I suspect it must happen to you a lot and maybe you should reflect on that...), the slander, etc. like many others, I am giving up as always on trying to engage coherently with you.

OP posts:
C8H10N4O2 · 17/06/2025 11:50

inkognitha · 17/06/2025 10:12

One can whatabout all over the threads until heads are spinning, but the poll is not lying, 92% in favour. And MN is a progressive place.

It is high time to talk openly about cultural differences in the UK (which is not racism, it's about culture, not colour), about the neglect of the white (ex)working classes, about the sheer contempt for these children, who have been let down by everyone, time for some people to admit these inconvenient truths do exist and, hopefully, get their head around basic statistics.

The victims in Rotherham were not all white, many were Mipuri women who like the white girls were generally WC with vulnerabilities and regarded as disposable by the gangs. They have written and spoken about their own experiences and the added difficulties they have accessing support but largely been ignored by people only interested in the race of that particular gang’s abusers.

I have no time for La Toynbee’s particular brand of smug “do as I say, luxury beliefs” brand of MC liberalism but its just as ridiculous to claim that this is specifically a Mipuri Pakistani problem and I have zero time for the opportunists from the other side.

The abuse of children and trafficking of young women by gangs isn’t just a crime of sexual abuse its also organised crime. Organised crime usually does have a cultural/family group at core, be they North London Albanian gangs, Liverpool/Glasgow sectarian based gangs, the old Yardies in South London, the East End families like the Krays or the Italian Mafia.

Most of the convictions from grooming gangs have been white, in Rotherham they were Mipuri Pakistani groups, others have been of different ethnic origins.

The culture is relevant to organised crime as it dictates how specific gangs recruit and control members, the groups they link up with and sometimes the areas of “business”. It also often dictates tactics they can use to suppress the legal and welfare systems.

So the culture of the Rotherham gangs is relevant but mainly to the Rotherham gangs. The culture of East London white gangs is also relevant to how they operate. Studying the culture of how such gangs operate is relevant but has rarely translated into reductions in gang crime. Perhaps it would be better to look hard at the professional classes who in each case have failed the victims.

I would like to see the politicians, offices of the law and social services who dismissed the girls and turned a blind eye prosecuted. I’d like to see the same happen to those involved in ignoring victims of other gangs because the common feature across them is classism, not only race - largely the professional classes tasked with the protection of these girls just saw them as poor, unimportant and disposable.

HaudYerWheeshtYaWeeBellend · 17/06/2025 11:44

There is currently a backlog of over 450,000 cases awaiting to be investigated for child sex offences, the backlog is so large that the courts and police are unable to keep up.

There is not enough computer forensic specialists to keep up with the demand.

During Covid the government and schools promoted a website called teen.chat.org…

I am currently dealing with a family whose child was groomed aged 12, on the above website that their school promoted during Covid, (family found out age 13)

Family reported to the police , social services and school for help, all services refused help as the child came from a good family…

14 months later the child was arrested for distribution of child sexual images … the images that the child’s groomers threatened them and expose them if they didn’t share the images on a black market forum on the gaming site Discord.

10 months later, the child’s computer is still waiting to be forensically searched , child is still on bail.

Social services have advised there is no specialist help for the child even tho the child has been exposed to sexually harmful behaviours and they are wishing to close the case (parents have refused)

On an additional note, if any families need support in relation to this, I’d recommend the Lucy Faithfull Foundation. https://www.lucyfaithfull.org.uk/

Lucy Faithfull Foundation - Preventing child sexual abuse

Lucy Faithfull Foundation works to protect children by working with people who pose a risk and diverting them from causing harm.

https://www.lucyfaithfull.org.uk

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 11:41

miraxxx · 17/06/2025 11:39

In rupees?

Boom boom tish!

miraxxx · 17/06/2025 11:39

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 11:35

Your contribution is appreciated.

In rupees?

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 11:35

miraxxx · 17/06/2025 11:34

Is anyone paying you for all the heavy duty gatekeeping you have been doing on this thread?

Your contribution is appreciated.

Fetaface · 17/06/2025 11:34

Justanotherlurker · 17/06/2025 11:21

Maybe you should get Casey to change the report.

"This audit found it hard to understand how the Home Office paper reached that conclusion, which does not seem to be evidenced in research or data"

But I agree we cannot draw conclusions nationally as there has been an active cover up in some instances, and not following procedure of data collection.

But not drawing to conclusions also applies to the multiple posters on here trying to what about white men, especially after it was called out in Casey's inquiry.

What would I want changing and why do you think I want anything changing? I have lifted things directly from the report.

I never gave an opinion on not drawing conclusions.

miraxxx · 17/06/2025 11:34

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 10:15

So this isn't about justice for the survivors or changing attitudes, it's one of your typical xenophobic posts.

Is anyone paying you for all the heavy duty gatekeeping you have been doing on this thread?

EasternStandard · 17/06/2025 11:27

Surely it’s time to stop using accusations on xenophobia / racism etc on this. It’s why we’re here and if you read The Guardian article that sums it up.

PiggyPigalle · 17/06/2025 11:26

Good, get on with it, no scalps spared.
I wish they'd shut up with the blame game and I told you so, on radio though. That's what the enquiry is for and there is rather a lot of other news going on in the world to cover.
I turned the radio back on after an hour of it and they were still asking why this didn't happen years ago.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 11:25

inkognitha · 17/06/2025 11:23

I don't backtrack, I had said it.
I had written this exact sentence in the post that you quoted to accuse me of not caring for the victims.

edited for spelling

Edited

I see you're not denying your inflammatory views.

inkognitha · 17/06/2025 11:23

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 11:21

It's not me who's lying. I've seen post after post of yours making dehumanising and inflammatory comments about immigrants, Muslims and asylum seekers and this appears to be no different.

I see you've backtracked and suddenly this is all about the survivors.

I don't backtrack, I had said it.
I had written this exact sentence in the post that you quoted to accuse me of not caring for the victims.

edited for spelling

OP posts:
MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 11:21

inkognitha · 17/06/2025 11:18

about the sheer contempt for these children, who have been let down by everyone

Please, do not accuse me of something I have not done, I do care for the victims and I wrote it.

As a survivor of a horrendous SA myself as a teen, your lie is particularly callous.

The fact that too many people projected a lot of ideological stuff to the point of lying to undermine the facts because it was hurting their ideals is what kept this abuse going for 30+ years. Please, stop doing it.

Also, I am not British-born, my DP is of Muslim heritage, I have lived in 5 countries, not all of them democracies and 2 continents, am multilingual. If you think that the existence of cultural differences is xenophobia, let me have a giggle and tell you to travel more.

As I was listening to Times Radio this morning, they still quoted the facts that in Rotherham 64% of sexual offences were attributed to Pakistani men who only count for 4% of the population. This needs to be looked at properly, and a lot more overall needs to be done against CSE, especially for the safeguarding of vulnerable working-class girls.

It's not me who's lying. I've seen post after post of yours making dehumanising and inflammatory comments about immigrants, Muslims and asylum seekers and this appears to be no different.

I see you've backtracked and suddenly this is all about the survivors.

Justanotherlurker · 17/06/2025 11:21

Fetaface · 17/06/2025 11:12

They said a lot about the data and it all stems from how it is being analysed. It can be used as raw or it can be used in comparison. People are saying one set isn't valid when all are valid.

It said:
Most were white men when it was raw data on men.
Pakistani men were over-represented when it was converted to equivalent fractions.
It is mainly children who were perpetrators based on raw data.
We cannot draw conclusions because 2/3 of the data on the perpetrators is unknown.

White girls were over-represented when the unknowns were removed.
There is an under-representation of asian victims.
We cannot draw conclusions on ethnicity of victims in the main as 2/3 of the data on the victims is unknown.

So it is all down to how the data is being used and viewed as raw data, data being compared, data being used as a proportion. People will select the data and the data type.

So the data can show more than one thing at a time and still be correct.

Edited

Maybe you should get Casey to change the report.

"This audit found it hard to understand how the Home Office paper reached that conclusion, which does not seem to be evidenced in research or data"

But I agree we cannot draw conclusions nationally as there has been an active cover up in some instances, and not following procedure of data collection.

But not drawing to conclusions also applies to the multiple posters on here trying to what about white men, especially after it was called out in Casey's inquiry.

EasternStandard · 17/06/2025 11:21

inkognitha · 17/06/2025 11:18

about the sheer contempt for these children, who have been let down by everyone

Please, do not accuse me of something I have not done, I do care for the victims and I wrote it.

As a survivor of a horrendous SA myself as a teen, your lie is particularly callous.

The fact that too many people projected a lot of ideological stuff to the point of lying to undermine the facts because it was hurting their ideals is what kept this abuse going for 30+ years. Please, stop doing it.

Also, I am not British-born, my DP is of Muslim heritage, I have lived in 5 countries, not all of them democracies and 2 continents, am multilingual. If you think that the existence of cultural differences is xenophobia, let me have a giggle and tell you to travel more.

As I was listening to Times Radio this morning, they still quoted the facts that in Rotherham 64% of sexual offences were attributed to Pakistani men who only count for 4% of the population. This needs to be looked at properly, and a lot more overall needs to be done against CSE, especially for the safeguarding of vulnerable working-class girls.

It’s not right to accuse you op. The Guardian article says similar. I think some are relying on the old methods to silence.

inkognitha · 17/06/2025 11:18

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 10:15

So this isn't about justice for the survivors or changing attitudes, it's one of your typical xenophobic posts.

about the sheer contempt for these children, who have been let down by everyone

Please, do not accuse me of something I have not done, I do care for the victims and I wrote it.

As a survivor of a horrendous SA myself as a teen, your lie is particularly callous.

The fact that too many people projected a lot of ideological stuff to the point of lying to undermine the facts because it was hurting their ideals is what kept this abuse going for 30+ years. Please, stop doing it.

Also, I am not British-born, my DP is of Muslim heritage, I have lived in 5 countries, not all of them democracies and 2 continents, am multilingual. If you think that the existence of cultural differences is xenophobia, let me have a giggle and tell you to travel more.

As I was listening to Times Radio this morning, they still quoted the facts that in Rotherham 64% of sexual offences were attributed to Pakistani men who only count for 4% of the population. This needs to be looked at properly, and a lot more overall needs to be done against CSE, especially for the safeguarding of vulnerable working-class girls.

OP posts:
Fetaface · 17/06/2025 11:12

Justanotherlurker · 17/06/2025 10:57

Yet where they had collected data it was shown that Pakistani men where over represented.

And it is funny that they couldn't draw a national conclusion yet people are on here trying to to cite debunked data from a floored study to still try and brush it under the carpet by saying ," akshully most sexual abuse gangs are made up of white men"

It's brave to try and double down on something that has specifically been called out in the actual report especially when it was talking about covering up and using dodgy datasets from hard truths.

They said a lot about the data and it all stems from how it is being analysed. It can be used as raw or it can be used in comparison. People are saying one set isn't valid when all are valid.

It said:
Most were white men when it was raw data on men.
Pakistani men were over-represented when it was converted to equivalent fractions.
It is mainly children who were perpetrators based on raw data.
We cannot draw conclusions because 2/3 of the data on the perpetrators is unknown.

White girls were over-represented when the unknowns were removed.
There is an under-representation of asian victims.
We cannot draw conclusions on ethnicity of victims in the main as 2/3 of the data on the victims is unknown.

So it is all down to how the data is being used and viewed as raw data, data being compared, data being used as a proportion. People will select the data and the data type.

So the data can show more than one thing at a time and still be correct.

Everanewbie · 17/06/2025 11:12

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 10:15

So this isn't about justice for the survivors or changing attitudes, it's one of your typical xenophobic posts.

I don't think this is helpful. If the enquiry identifies that cultural attitudes had a large a part to play as many suspect in the abuse and the permissiveness of communities allowed them to get away with it and remain respected members of said communities (which a lot of stories from survivors and those close to the investigations suggests it does) then some kind of actions will be needed going forward. I would suggest education of the people themselves from school reduce the use of separate faith schools, educating the social workers and police.

We can't continue to pretend that minority cultures are all wise and all victims and immune to criticism due to their perceived victimhood.