Which of your children would take up arms if need be to defend their country

Some really interesting points coming up here linking home ownership and investment in the nation’s future. This strongly links to research done a few years ago on the future of the (pro-military, pro-patriotism) Conservative Party that concluded that they’re done for because their whole appeal is based around a culture of home ownership that is disappearing.

@Charlottejbt thank you for answering my question.

The Labour party could have made a positive change, but they won't. The left needs a new party and will hopefully get one, but that's for another thread!

Spend some time getting kicked around the UK's private rental sector, then come back and tell us that ownership (or at the very least a secure tenancy) isn't necessary to a sense of belonging.

We had homes fit for heroes, and we tossed them away to whatever grubby little carpet bagger was ready with a couple of grand. Without the homes, don't expect the heroes.

Some people try to take refuge in a deluded, jingoistic nationalism and the rest, faced with insurmountable social and political problems, have simply given up trying to make anything

If none of the political parties can improve matters then what is the solution? Or maybe there is no solution.

I own absolutely nothing outright. I have one mortgage on one home that my husband and I work hard to pay. That we both retrained and studied hard midlife to pay. I value the (state) education that this country gave me, the freedom to express myself and safety to live my life without fear or danger. And that is what I would be fighting for.

Indeed.

It doesn't do any harm to give thanks to who or what ever there is that we don't live in those times. Who knows, it might allow us to feel empathy for those that do.

That's a very interesting and sensible perspective. I don't think I'd realised until now , but you have a clarity of perspective that seems to come from belonging to a country united in its purpose and its sense of solidarity (a dirty word in the UK since Thatcher at least). In the UK, on the other hand, most of the populace are on the losing side of a class war and are finally realising it.
@OrdinaryMagicOfAcorns ' last post sums it up best. Some people try to take refuge in a deluded, jingoistic nationalism and the rest, faced with insurmountable social and political problems, have simply given up trying to make anything better. For various geographical and geopolitical reasons the UK is less vulnerable to invading armies than Finland - but we also care far less, having less to lose. The only moral, pro-social people despise what the UK has become, while the self-proclaimed patriots are just cowardly far right thugs who would be the first to run and hide in any emergency.

I need to say that I'm a democrat. I voted against us leaving the EU as I feel that our only hope was with Europe & have the ideal of Britain being an independent state with in a republic of Europe - along the lines of what we have in the UK with Wales, Scotland, NI having differing laws etc.

But the masses didn't agree and I accept that.

DH didn't agree & voted to leave - he says that he so regrets it now.

Me? I say the masses voted to leave, I'm a democrat it's now up to the Govt to make it work.

Is the UKworth defending? Are the Royal Family and similar, their wealth, arrogance and lack of interest in any of us, worth my kids deaths? What about our politicians, landlords and rich shareholders destroying the NHS, democracy and law? What about the drug gang dealers and rapists who get away with it?
Don’t think so. I dont think anything in Britain is worth one hair off their heads to be honest.

@OrdinaryMagicOfAcorns yes, the UKmay have its problems, certainly, though the regime of the successful invaders may be worse.
(Though I suppose the new regime may be able to reduce crime more effectively than the UK is doing at present).

I have no independence, asa woman I cannot afford to live in this country independently of my husband. And as for protesting, bring back all those who have lost their careers, or been unable even to start, for daring to protest in favour of the environment or in favour of women’s rights.

Stating your age does you no favours with me, boomer. Go look at the threads about the unearned wealth of our parents.

And how much of it do you own?

Im not falling for crap like that from the royal family.

I live in a place where I have no career and no chance of one and I’m worried that my kids also have no chance of one. I used to have a career and a good job. Tech was eating it anyway and I spent 20 years working to pay my landlords mortgages - spent enough to pay for 3 at the original cost they paid.

Let the landlords, who dare judge us for being’transactional’ and told us we had no need to own assets for reasons while using us to accumulate theirs, defend the country. Except I doubt they will, they’ve probably retired to somewhere nicer by now.

It's not about the Royal Family it's about our independence. Tony Ben said that the bench mark of a democracy is how easy is it to get rid of a Govt that isn't working.

If Russia or another country took control without a democratic mandate, frankly I would be out on the streets complaining & protesting.

But then I'm 62 & of a generation who protested - I embraced the base at Greenham Common (also spent a few weekends there), stood in Hounslow High Street raising money for the striking miners, sat in a cage in Exeter protesting on behalf of Amnesty International, as a tiddler was with my parents when they protested against South Africa playing rugby, also joined my mother in Reclaim the Streets protests. For years I didn't eat S African fruit.

As a child it seemed that we were going on some protest every second weekend. I've spent my life campaigning & protesting.

I took my son age 2 on 'Don't attack Iraq' rallies.

I will continue exercising my democratic rights and wil continue to demonstrate.

They’re entitled to not want to die in a futile war. They’re entitled to live. And why just the men? Women leave too noone expects them to die ‘for their country’.

So it’s only your country if you own a corner of it? Rather a transactional way of looking at things. What about the things that make a place home - neighbourhood, friends, kids’ school, favourite walk…?

Better to be a coward than dead. Or worse - horribly injured.

If it was existential, there would be little choice. But otherwise, not on your life. (Male) politicians cause wars and then expect the plebs to fight them (and of course women come off worst).

Maybe the stupid male politicians could work towards peace and prosperity, rather than size of dick contests. I am disgusted with what's going on the Middle East and in Ukraine. Why can none of them see that peace is better for everyone. Why would you want to destroy lives and places?

I have 5, none of them would, 2 are severely autistic, 2 more also autistic but lower support needs, the Fifth does not believe in war.

Probably expect people like one of my DDs ( in RAF) or nephew ( Army) to do the fighting while they make pillows out of the white feathers sent to them

Over my dead body. None of my kids are cannon fodder and they won’t die to protect any nation state.

And that’s the issue. Britain has lovingly and with great effort created a society where most of us can work forever and never gain a corner to defend.

Oh, I'm not suggesting that it was easy, or even morally straightforward.

Fucking impossible is what I imagine it was.

I wouldn't ignore what they say, but I would base my judgements more on their actions. For instance invading Ukraine, building up military infrastructure on the Finnish border, plus all the hybrid warfare. Its like a bully is poking you with a stick, while saying they're going to attack you, and someone else says 'don't listen to them, they're always telling lies' - we are being poked by the stick now.

Two sons, both of whom would do it - one who’d feel it’s the right thing to do, one who’d like an adventure and to get to use actual weapons! That said, if my little corner of the world was threatened, I’d definitely defend it.

Finland, which has an awful lot of its people trained to bear arms, might be worth defending.

Is the UKworth defending? Are the Royal Family and similar, their wealth, arrogance and lack of interest in any of us, worth my kids deaths? What about our politicians, landlords and rich shareholders destroying the NHS, democracy and law? What about the drug gang dealers and rapists who get away with it?

Don’t think so. I dont think anything in Britain is worth one hair off their heads to be honest.

My MIL worked in the underground war rooms she used to talk about the occasions when she was asked to take dictation for the Great Man himself - I'm talking about W Churchill, who, apparently was very kind & would offer her a sherry which she always refused.

DH & me took her for a visit - it was a very emotional visit. She was 16 when she first started working there. In her 80's she was able to say that the ladies loo was down this corridor, the canteen was here. She remembered that she frequently had to spend the night in an underground stations to sheller from air raids & then go to work the next morning-sometimes for 3-4 nights in a row.

DH & me think how we used to worry about DD when she was 16 & going on dates & DH would be on standby to collect her even though we knew who she was with & where she was. The thought of her being in central London in an air raid - our blood runs cold.

But different times.