Still in nappies at school

That's exactly what pp said.

It still isn’t the teachers responsibility.

Definitely agree with others that the shift from cloth nappies to disposables has made a massive difference in potty training age. As @menopausalmare says, cloth nappies are a hassle and so potty training becomes about parental readiness as much as children's! But I wonder if another factor is about parents having to literally get their hands dirty. When you're used to picking up cloth nappies and putting them in the washing machine, or sloshing off poo-y nappies in the loo, cleaning up after accidents whilst potty training is no biggie. Cleaning wee off the floor is less effort than changing and washing a cloth nappy. So while we did used to potty train younger, standards have probably changed too. Cloth nappy users in ye olden days - we didn't expect there not to be mess, mess was part of the deal. My three were all in cloth nappies (teens and young adults now, so I was seen as terribly old fashioned using terry squares in the early 2000s), and all potty trained daytime by age 3 with one with some SEN. Night-time is completely different, one took until age 10 to crack that and I was very glad of the disposable nappies then.

But then, cloth nappies are a pain when both parents are working. It was easy for me because I didn't have a job then, and I didn't plan ahead and now I don't have a career. Tricky, I don't think there is a good answer.

“Waking up cold, wet and smelly every morning, and being shamed for wetting my pants every day in Reception made
me the man I am today!”

Mr. [insert name here]

I do wonder if those who feel so strongly against nappies for older children are those who were denied them but clearly needed them a bit later than most?

I remember loads of kids having frequent accidents at school and had a few friends who wet the bed (no DryNites then- they presumably just had to launder the sheets daily and had smelly bedrooms).

Just like those who defend the right to smack are often those who say “it didn’t do me any harm!” when it clearly did…

It’s absolutely no good at all saying ‘oh but of course we don’t mean children with medical issues or similar’. People won’t always know which is which and you can’t create a hostile environment to one group without risking affecting the other. It is like trying to create a hostile environment for fraudulent benefits claimants or for immigrants and then saying ‘oh but of course not the genuine cases’. The general public often can’t identify the genuine cases, so if you create a certain public attitude it is going to make things harder for everyone.

Doing that would have left another class with no adult. When the TA has the class it's an indication that there aren't many spare adults around. And personal care generally takes 2 staff for safeguarding .I suppose the business manager could have helped the y5/6 teacher . But she is almost 5 with no sen. There is no reason she can't wipe her bum other than lack of experience, practice and support at home.

That's my point changing an older child can be an unpleasant experience, I did it for years with my Disabled child ,so how can some posters think this is preferable to toilet training a child assuming they are typical and the parents are being lazy?

My oldest was 3 and 2 months when he trained as a) I was waiting for him to be ready ( never happened) and b for the summer months to let him run around in just pants .
I do remember though that I used to be gagging changing his nappies at that stage I just don’t think I have it in me to change older children soiled nappies as a teacher , it was hard enough to change my own child’s!

I'm totally with you. We've been going through it with my son for years, it's completely soul destroying and managing it is so far from "lazy parenting" it's unreal. My son also has both urinary and faecal incontinence, I've been thinking about setting up a parent peer support group as the stigma around it (as seen on threads like this) means people don't often talk about it, and trying to cope with it all alone was really detrimental to my mental health in my son's first year of school. Sending solidarity, people who haven't been through it have absolutely no idea.

Agreed even if the parents are lazy and neglectful ,how does neglecting a child's needs at school help ?

It is part of their job. 2 of the TA's are only there because of my son's needs, including his physical care.

No child should have to sit in their own mess waiting for their parent to come and change them. Diagnosed needs or not.

What if they haven’t had a diagnosis yet though? It can take years. Luckily my DS was diagnosed very early because our health visitor was so on the ball. Sometimes all children have for a long time is their their primary carer’s view on things based on the reality of their lives. Their primary carer is sometimes the only one advocating for them for a while before the professionals get involved so why shouldn’t they be listened to? You have a massive chip on your shoulder.

My DD is due to start primary this year and while she is fully trained, it was a long struggle and I dread a regression. I am sure there are parents whose approach is all wrong, but I would just beg anyone not to jump to conclusions because there will be some individuals who have been working day and night for over a year to train with no success. They are already at the end of their tether, please don’t label them with the others!

The TA is being taken away from their proper job to deal with nappies. If a child has no established special needs, not just Mummy's opinion, then the parent should be available all day to deal with their child.

Again for all the posters insisting it's lazy parenting ,can anyone explain why it's preferable to keep a child in nappies and have to clean them up etc rather than just toilet training them ?
And I'm not buying thst a typical 5/6 year old is happy to stay in nappies ,other kids can be cruel either intentionally or not
Ew," Bob" smells of poo etc .

My experience is secondary, but I was on primary liaison in the '90s and recall primary colleagues then speaking of this problem increasing.

In addition, pupils were coming into reception unable to sit at a table and use cutlery - they'd start screaming because they wanted to use their fingers to pick up food.

I remember my husband being appalled when he saw this with his own granddaughter. Her parents then sent her to an independent school where, according to them, she was taught "lovely manners". It didn't go down well when DH asked "Is that not your job?"

The granddaughter is now a graduate in her mid-twenties.

It was four years ago that lockdown ended and communication with peers and family was possible throughout in a way that previous generations could only dream of. In person meeting was restricted heavily but not throughout the whole year of covid.

Generations of parents have potty trained their children, taught them to brush their teeth and dress themselves and use cutlery without HV visits to tell them how to do it.

I’d also cite the primary teachers describing this trend as starting before Covid and being too common to be explained by eg moderate SEN.

It's very strange that you keep comparing your child's condition to cancer and diabetes, my daughter has a health condition and I've never felt the need to compare it to things like cancer.

Three of my four children were toilet trained by the time they were 2 and 3 and before they started nursery.

It was just one of my children, my second born, who struggled. He was developmentally delayed and he wasn’t out of pull ups by the time he started nursery. It wasn’t a cop out at all. He was out of pull ups by the time he started Reception. Not that it would have been a bad thing if he wasn’t! He is 12 now and has learning difficulties. Is that a cop out too? Am I not doing enough for him?

Of course you’re not lazy.
So many PPs are saying that it can’t be expected for all SEN children to be toilet trained by the time they start school. Some may be but many won’t.

At my son's school it is never the school teacher who changes him, it is always his TA's.

So that's two people having to take themselves away from their real job to deal with the failure of lazy parents. If a child is in nappies at school then the parents should be doing the changing, no-one else, it might be the kick in the rear they need to do their job as a parent.

So society has to pick up even more of the parental responsibilities, 'developmentally delayed' is a cop out. Why did it used to be possible for the majority of 3 year olds to be out of nappies yet now all the jargon has been invented to excuse idle parents.

And you would know this how?
BTW ,Sen covers a very broad spectrum.