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Original poster

Great article in the Guardian about wokeism

337 replies

inkognitha · 11/06/2025 08:51

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/10/how-does-woke-start-winning-again

Good morning everyone.
Today, even the Guardian admits woke isn’t working.

« Yet Progressive Activists’ fatal flaw, the report argues, is that they’re further from mainstream public opinion on cultural issues than they realise. They’re the only group where a majority thinks that immigration should be as high or higher than it is now, and that protecting people from hate speech matters more than defending free speech (a key rationale behind “no debate” – the idea that trans identities aren’t up for discussion – and “no platforming”). They’re also the group most likely to think social change sometimes requires breaking the law, whereas two-thirds of Britons disapprove of protesters blocking roads or gluing themselves to things.
Tryl stresses that being outliers doesn’t invariably make Progressive Activists wrong – perhaps they’re just ahead of the curve, as the suffragettes once were – but it has important tactical implications. His polling shows that Progressive Activists overestimate by a factor of two to three how much others agree with their core beliefs, from abolishing the monarchy to letting children change gender. Consequently they tend to invest too little time on persuasion, focusing instead on mobilising the masses they wrongly imagine are on board. “If you’re reaching out to people, then you’re watering down,” is how Tryl describes this mindset.
While successful campaigns usually build the broadest base possible, Progressive Activists also tend to be purists, rejecting supporters who don’t endorse a complete worldview. (More than a quarter wouldn’t campaign alongside someone who believes – as a majority of Britons do – in Israel’s right to exist, for example.) Their yearning for grand systemic change means they can sound dismissive of other people’s small but well-meaning efforts, and they’re also unusually keen on correcting other people’s “mistakes” on diversity issues, something other groups consider likely to cause embarrassment. »

I hope some of the keyboard warriors/bullies roaming this board and the blue-haired, nose-pierced authoritarians will have a read, and at last, a think on how they do more harm than good.

How does woke start winning again? | Gaby Hinsliff

The long read: British progressives have suffered major setbacks in recent years, in both public opinion and court rulings. Was a backlash inevitable, and are new tactics needed?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/10/how-does-woke-start-winning-again

OP posts:
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6
MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 12:51

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 12:50

Pointless trying to discuss with those exhibiting juvenile behaviour. That's the left for you.

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Oh dear. Realised you're wrong, again?

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 12:50

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 12:49

What's hard to believe pinochio?

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Pointless trying to discuss with those exhibiting juvenile behaviour. That's the left for you.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 12:49

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 12:47

You said you found it hard to believe.

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What's hard to believe pinochio?

BadSkiingMum · 12/06/2025 12:49

This thread has veered in all sorts of directions but the premise of the original article is interesting, regardless of whether you agree with or support certain causes. Namely, that the Overton window appears to be shifting again, or didn’t shift for many in the first place.

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 12:47

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 12:43

You do like to make things up. Its quite amusing.

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You said you found it hard to believe.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 12:43

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 12:41

Yet you had no problem believing a poster was lying about the treatment of the women in Cologne.

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You do like to make things up. Its quite amusing.

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 12:41

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 12:39

Of course I would. I believe in innocent until proved guilty. I don't naturally assume that someone accused of a crime has done it.

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Yet you had no problem believing a poster was lying about the treatment of the women in Cologne.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 12:39

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 12:32

Would you say the same if the alleged attempted racists were white British males?
If you would then fair enough.

For balance, I also think the protestors are hypocrites if they only protest against immigrants being rapists. Why aren’t they out on the street when British men rape too? The fact they’re using the attempted rape of this girl to protest against immigration and not the crime itself leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth

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Of course I would. I believe in innocent until proved guilty. I don't naturally assume that someone accused of a crime has done it.

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 12:34

Interesting that the posts selling women down the river are merely proving the author's point.

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 12:32

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 10:58

It wasn't rape, it was attempted and you're assuming guilt before a trial. However I don't imagine you're interested in due process or human rights so it's a waste of time engaging with you.

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Would you say the same if the alleged attempted racists were white British males?
If you would then fair enough.

For balance, I also think the protestors are hypocrites if they only protest against immigrants being rapists. Why aren’t they out on the street when British men rape too? The fact they’re using the attempted rape of this girl to protest against immigration and not the crime itself leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth

Bollihobs · 12/06/2025 12:03

SlipperyLizard · 11/06/2025 09:22

Interesting that the Guardian has covered this, but Gaby Hinsliff makes her allegiances clear (pro-woke).

She clearly thinks Robert Wintemute deserved to be cancelled (and that Guardian readers would feel the same) for views that (“startlingly” according to Gaby) 50% of the population agree with.

The Guardian is part of the problem and I don’t think this article is a sign that it will be part of the solution.

"Startlingly" is such a key word isn't it. It sums up the woke brigade - they literally cannot understand how anyone can disagree with them or hold an alternative view. For them there are no other perspectives, no nuance, no leeway, theirs is the only 'right' way. Idealogical possession at it's strongest.

MaturingCheeseball · 12/06/2025 11:58

The “no nation states” position. How does that work then? So anyone can go anywhere. Fine. But if hundreds of millions all travelled to the most economically-beneficial “nations” then that’s the end of many of the societal privileges that those trumpeting for this currently enjoy.

Original poster
inkognitha · 12/06/2025 11:57

ThatNimblePeer · 12/06/2025 11:35

Sorry but there’s so much silliness in this post that it’s hard to respond to seriously. I don’t know how many people you think make up a ‘horde’ but I’m struggling to think of a time I’ve ever even seen one blue-haired person, and I say that as someone who is fairly regularly in academic and queer spaces. They’re not exactly rampaging through Sainsbury’s, are they?

It’s sort of unclear whether what offends you is certain viewpoints and tactics or just the blue hair and nose piercings in and of themselves? Are you equally offended by people who support causes you don’t agree with but don’t have blue hair or nose piercings? If they have blue hair and nose piercings but regularly read the Daily Mail, from which you seem to get most of your talking points, then are they ok? ‘Captured the elites’ you mean convinced people of their arguments? Can you be a bit more specific about which elites you have in mind? I’m going to take a wild guess that academia is in there somewhere, which feels sort of tragically hilarious as I look at the sea of low pay, precarious contracts and overwork around me. If you’re really interested in elites maybe take a look at the people who own the newspapers you read.

’Woke is a bit of a vague term’ yes you don’t say. I think you should take a bit of a look at the ways it gets used around the internet, and be more concerned about the people and viewpoints you’re associating yourself with when you use it.

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@ThatNimblePeer

I have been very clear and addressed your points.

Why are you all so riled about the "nose-pierced, blue-haired", when you call so freely people fascists, Karens, gammons etc? Because it stings when it's done to you? Exactly. That is why we need for rules that applies to everyone in every circumstance, independently of the character or the views of the person who does it. That is why democracy was invented. To go beyond sliding insults at each other and beating up political opponents.

And it applies to absolutely everyone, even the gammons, the karens, the rightwings, even TR (as long as what is said and done is legal) or it is not fair, nor a democracy.

It’s sort of unclear whether what offends you is certain viewpoints and tactics or just the blue hair and nose piercings in and of themselves?

I have been so clear I actually used BOLD, please go re-read that paragraph.
It is not about the ideals defended, it is about the tactics used and their very low ethics/intellect. I will not engage with the rest of your obfuscating questions trying to make me justify every syllable of my opinion and being, because there are very clear comprehension issues on your side that are outside my abilities.

Keep thinking, take a deep breath, keep having a lovely day,

OP posts:
GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 11:54

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 11:36

I didn't understand much of this.

If you would like to debate any of the issues, I am happy to.

I am nothing if not anti-authoritarian.

Perhaps you could explain to me how engaging in this mumsnet thread with posts that you apparently find provocative is showing an "authoritarian" "outlook"?

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Perhaps you could explain to me how engaging in this mumsnet thread with posts that you apparently find provocative is showing an "authoritarian" "outlook"?

Certainly. I'll try to keep it simpler too.

Your post starts with a complaint that "people want to reserve the right to" and then goes on to list various positions.

That's a complaint about people seeking a right to advance positions in ways that Lostcat disagrees with. It's a right I support and that you are opposing.

You then describe as "entitled" the idea that if others want them to change their mind they should seek to persuade them.

You instead think it's "their own responsibility" to desist from these positions you disagree with.

That is not a liberal outlook. A liberal is someone who sees value in a pluralistic society where issues are settled in debate, and prizes the right to hold and advance a wide range of views. Including (or especially) views the person disagrees with.

An authoritarian outlook is one that opposes it.

MaturingCheeseball · 12/06/2025 11:53

I also remember a poster saying I was lying that there were any Cologne attacks at all.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 11:53

BadSkiingMum · 12/06/2025 11:42

There’s a bit more nuance but it still doesn’t read that well:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/08/cologne-attacks-hard-questions-new-years-eve

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Many thanks, I already read it. Quite a bit different to the description.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 11:39

ArtTheClown · 12/06/2025 11:16

That's highly unlikely but I'm happy to read the article if you have a link.

I remember the article too - it talked about privileged women with iphones.

I'm happy to read the article if you have a link.

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 11:36

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 11:30

Firstly, OP didn't advance any of those positions in her post, so I think your time would be better spent debating people who have or do.

Also, I do think people have "the right" to advance the positions you outline. If they do, I'll agree with them in some bits and disagree with them in others.

Advancing positions not shared by Lostcat is not acting 'entitled'. You don't have to take up 'the job' of debating them, but if you don't then you can't really complain when positions you disagree with advance.

Fundamentally, I think the outlook you are showing here is authoritarian.

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I didn't understand much of this.

If you would like to debate any of the issues, I am happy to.

I am nothing if not anti-authoritarian.

Perhaps you could explain to me how engaging in this mumsnet thread with posts that you apparently find provocative is showing an "authoritarian" "outlook"?

BadSkiingMum · 12/06/2025 11:35

TheaBrandt1 · 12/06/2025 11:09

I think this was the Guardian columnist that did a piece that excused the cologne sexual attacks on the basis the male attackers were migrants who had hard lives and the victims were privileged and had mobile phones so deserved it. I can’t really move on from that.

Unfortunately I remember that too…

ThatNimblePeer · 12/06/2025 11:35

inkognitha · 12/06/2025 08:52

If you can show me a single ‘blue haired nose pierced authoritarian’ who is running a country and curtailing people’s rights

@ThatNimblePeer You don't have to run a country to curtail people's rights or act in a authoritarian way, cue the blue-haired, nose-pierced gender hordes who have tried to eradicate women by capturing the elites, taking advantage of the desire to virtue-signal from the elites and the rampant misogyny that still permeates our society. But it's not worth worrying about, is it?

Woke is a bit of a vague term, but woke does not equal being left-leaning or progressive. Imho, the Left becomes woke when it get excessive, not as much in the views they adopt but the TACTICS they find acceptable. See my post above for a non-exhaustive list.

Woke starts when left politics become a virtue-signalling religion with taboos, groupthink, rituals, discrimination, coercion, etc., and not an intellectual, respectful exchange of ideas and thoughts based on facts and experience, respecting democratic values and aiming to build a consensus with all segments of the population. That is politics, that is democracy.

And last point, it's not because there are authoritarian right-wing dictators in this world that it makes it ok for little blue-haired kids to be authoritarian as well (even with different goals).

Putting the two together like you did is actually very revealing, because it really highlights the fact that lots of woke people don't want to do politics, they want that authoritarian power. They don't see an awful dictator like a threat to democracy and the common good, they think "if Putin can do it, why can't we?"

Have a lovely, thoughtful day.

Sorry but there’s so much silliness in this post that it’s hard to respond to seriously. I don’t know how many people you think make up a ‘horde’ but I’m struggling to think of a time I’ve ever even seen one blue-haired person, and I say that as someone who is fairly regularly in academic and queer spaces. They’re not exactly rampaging through Sainsbury’s, are they?

It’s sort of unclear whether what offends you is certain viewpoints and tactics or just the blue hair and nose piercings in and of themselves? Are you equally offended by people who support causes you don’t agree with but don’t have blue hair or nose piercings? If they have blue hair and nose piercings but regularly read the Daily Mail, from which you seem to get most of your talking points, then are they ok? ‘Captured the elites’ you mean convinced people of their arguments? Can you be a bit more specific about which elites you have in mind? I’m going to take a wild guess that academia is in there somewhere, which feels sort of tragically hilarious as I look at the sea of low pay, precarious contracts and overwork around me. If you’re really interested in elites maybe take a look at the people who own the newspapers you read.

’Woke is a bit of a vague term’ yes you don’t say. I think you should take a bit of a look at the ways it gets used around the internet, and be more concerned about the people and viewpoints you’re associating yourself with when you use it.

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 11:33

JustSawJohnny · 12/06/2025 11:25

God, the amount of gaslighty, alt-right shite on this site is really ramping at the moment.

Wokeismm doesn't exist. It's a label thrown around by the right to poke at anyone who cares about anything.

If you're offended by other people having a moral compass, that's on you.

Also, fuck right off.

Fuck right off yourself. Let me see poking fun at something v physical violence against a woman. 🤔

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 11:30

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 11:16

The problem is not me created a "straw man", the problem is that people want to reserve the right to "debate" the legitimacy of trans existence, while pretending they have no problem with trans people.

They want to complain about immigration, while refusing to acknowledge the broader injustices at stake.

They want to oppose environmental activism while claiming to care about climate change.

They want to defend a regime committing genocide, without anyone using the word genocide.

They are also so entitled that they think it's the job of other people to persuade them to change their mind, instead of their own responsibility to behave in socially responsible ways.

I will continue to call this out for what it is - that's the most that I can do, and it doesn't mean I have blue-hair or a nose piercing.

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Firstly, OP didn't advance any of those positions in her post, so I think your time would be better spent debating people who have or do.

Also, I do think people have "the right" to advance the positions you outline. If they do, I'll agree with them in some bits and disagree with them in others.

Advancing positions not shared by Lostcat is not acting 'entitled'. You don't have to take up 'the job' of debating them, but if you don't then you can't really complain when positions you disagree with advance.

Fundamentally, I think the outlook you are showing here is authoritarian.

soupycustard · 12/06/2025 11:25

I am glad the article appears in the Guardian. I used to be a member, just as I used to call myself 'left wing'. My views haven't changed - for eg I still dont think that privatisation of industry, rail etc was a good thing; I dont believe in a totally libertarian market economy; I do not agree with the power of global corporations over governments and tax regimes etc., I have campaigned for the environment for decades and donated funds.
However, I also know that males cannot be allowed to use females' sex-based rights if females are to have any hope of taking a full and equal role in society. That apparently make me 'right wing' by some accounts of 'wokeism'. Which makes 'right' and 'left' utterly meaningless.
And I frankly can't for the life of me think why fighting for male access to female spaces, jobs and prizes is at all 'woke'.

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