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Great article in the Guardian about wokeism

337 replies

inkognitha · 11/06/2025 08:51

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/10/how-does-woke-start-winning-again

Good morning everyone.
Today, even the Guardian admits woke isn’t working.

« Yet Progressive Activists’ fatal flaw, the report argues, is that they’re further from mainstream public opinion on cultural issues than they realise. They’re the only group where a majority thinks that immigration should be as high or higher than it is now, and that protecting people from hate speech matters more than defending free speech (a key rationale behind “no debate” – the idea that trans identities aren’t up for discussion – and “no platforming”). They’re also the group most likely to think social change sometimes requires breaking the law, whereas two-thirds of Britons disapprove of protesters blocking roads or gluing themselves to things.
Tryl stresses that being outliers doesn’t invariably make Progressive Activists wrong – perhaps they’re just ahead of the curve, as the suffragettes once were – but it has important tactical implications. His polling shows that Progressive Activists overestimate by a factor of two to three how much others agree with their core beliefs, from abolishing the monarchy to letting children change gender. Consequently they tend to invest too little time on persuasion, focusing instead on mobilising the masses they wrongly imagine are on board. “If you’re reaching out to people, then you’re watering down,” is how Tryl describes this mindset.
While successful campaigns usually build the broadest base possible, Progressive Activists also tend to be purists, rejecting supporters who don’t endorse a complete worldview. (More than a quarter wouldn’t campaign alongside someone who believes – as a majority of Britons do – in Israel’s right to exist, for example.) Their yearning for grand systemic change means they can sound dismissive of other people’s small but well-meaning efforts, and they’re also unusually keen on correcting other people’s “mistakes” on diversity issues, something other groups consider likely to cause embarrassment. »

I hope some of the keyboard warriors/bullies roaming this board and the blue-haired, nose-pierced authoritarians will have a read, and at last, a think on how they do more harm than good.

How does woke start winning again? | Gaby Hinsliff

The long read: British progressives have suffered major setbacks in recent years, in both public opinion and court rulings. Was a backlash inevitable, and are new tactics needed?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/10/how-does-woke-start-winning-again

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 16:00

Ohforpetersake · 12/06/2025 15:55

Sigh.

The problem with the right wing free speech brigade is their inconsistency.

It's - apparently - essential to free speech that we should be allowed to call transwomen men and trans-positive women handmaidens; but it's unacceptable to say thats TERFs are bigots or describe people as cis.

One or t'other.

I kind of think that Free Speech is held dear to most on the political spectrum (apart from the extremes of both ends) or it should be.
I’ve heard far left people outwardly state that people shouldn’t be allowed to express an opinion unless it’s one they agree with.

I certainly believe in it. And I don’t like the hypocrisy of either side.

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:58

Ohforpetersake · 12/06/2025 15:55

Sigh.

The problem with the right wing free speech brigade is their inconsistency.

It's - apparently - essential to free speech that we should be allowed to call transwomen men and trans-positive women handmaidens; but it's unacceptable to say thats TERFs are bigots or describe people as cis.

One or t'other.

Not really a good example because it isn’t bigoted to call a man a man. Trying to stop someone from saying something that’s objectively true is an assault on free speech.

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 15:58

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:51

There we go! This is fascinating as well. Apparently if you challenge Reform supporters you push them further towards Reform because they don't like it. I've never known people so sensitive.

As someone who has 0% chance of voting Reform, I’m curious what you think you are achieving here.

There are lots of people in the world who do support Reform.

What’s the value in taking people who aren’t Reform supporters and trying to persuade them that in fact they are?

Ohforpetersake · 12/06/2025 15:55

Sigh.

The problem with the right wing free speech brigade is their inconsistency.

It's - apparently - essential to free speech that we should be allowed to call transwomen men and trans-positive women handmaidens; but it's unacceptable to say thats TERFs are bigots or describe people as cis.

One or t'other.

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 15:54

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:51

There we go! This is fascinating as well. Apparently if you challenge Reform supporters you push them further towards Reform because they don't like it. I've never known people so sensitive.

No, I doubt that Reform voters care what you think of them - I know I don't. I said you're helping Farage because he's playing the long game and you can't even see it. Diversionary tactics.

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 15:54

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:49

It’s not even what peoples views are for me, it’s the way they bully and berate anyone with different views. Disagreeing robustly is fine, but the vitriol thrown at, say gender critical women, for holding a perfectly reasonable view about biology, is not a good look and it’s pushing people further to the extremes.

Yep, fair point and totally agree

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:53

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 15:52

See, this is kind of perfect. I’d always say greens were on the left. You’re a member of the Green Party. I have never voted for them. But I respect your opinion that they’re the party for you. Our politics are different from each other’s but I completely agree with every word you have said.

Oh, I’m despairing of my own party and how they are behaving nationally too. The thing is, most of the people in the party at local level don’t want much to do with how the party is being run right now. The way they are treating the trans issue is a case in point! We just want them to get back to caring about the bloody environment again!

GuevarasBeret · 12/06/2025 15:53

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 14:14

You can of course dress, act, mimic what you think the opposite sex behave, feel, look like

this is transphobic.

You hold certain beliefs which you think are “factual”- actually they are the product of a set of narrow and partial assumptions. And based on these presumed to be “factual” claims you’ve drawn transphobic conclusions.

It is right and appropriate to point out that transphobia is transphobia and there’s nothing intolerant , woke, angry or authoritarian about doing so.

It isn’t transphobic. It’s just not sharing your world view.

Or to put it another way, if this opinion deserves the label Transphobe!, then frankly so what? Why should anyone care if it makes you angry that someone might have the audacity to say “It isn’t possible to change sex”? You know just as well as they do that it isn’t possible to change sex, and your BeKind or we’ll go all Sarah Jane Barker just doesn’t wash any more.

Me being an atheist is not anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, anti-Christian nor erasing Sikhs Buddhists and Buddhists!

If I were as given to hyperbole as you are, the mud I’d fling back (Paedophile enabler! supporter of Child genital mutilation! Misogynist! Stalinist!) would be much darker, but more likely to stick to how people view you.

You are living by a lie.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:52

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:50

I did say I’m a Green for my sins! The only reason I’m still a member is because my local branch do a lot of good stuff on the ground. I despair of the sanctimony and cancelling that is happening nationally! I probably won’t vote for anyone come the next election the way things are going!

It's a shame because if they got their act together, they would be a viable alternative for many.

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 15:52

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:45

For one thing, I didn’t say anything about wanting g to engage with people. I’ve already said I don’t and won’t ever vote Reform - I’m a member of the Green Party, and yes, there is a subsection of the left who act like they’re the only ones who are right, moral and true and they are harming the cause massively. Calling them sanctimonious is nothing compared to what they say about people they don’t agree with.

See, this is kind of perfect. I’d always say greens were on the left. You’re a member of the Green Party. I have never voted for them. But I respect your opinion that they’re the party for you. Our politics are different from each other’s but I completely agree with every word you have said.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:51

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 15:48

Why, because the OP used some hurty words?

There we go! This is fascinating as well. Apparently if you challenge Reform supporters you push them further towards Reform because they don't like it. I've never known people so sensitive.

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:50

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:49

I thought you were another poster. You'd know about people who think they're moral and true if you vote Green.

I did say I’m a Green for my sins! The only reason I’m still a member is because my local branch do a lot of good stuff on the ground. I despair of the sanctimony and cancelling that is happening nationally! I probably won’t vote for anyone come the next election the way things are going!

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 15:50

TheaBrandt1 · 12/06/2025 15:42

I’m all over the place politically too. Was a left of centre centrist but after Cologne something switched. Then the trans issue / treatment of JKR was the nail in the coffin. Every issue women and girls hung out to dry by the left. Then the lefts anti semitism pro mass immigration with no thought for the consequences. I hate their virtue signalling smugness too. Maybe it’s perimenopause affecting my previous “be kind” ways which are now gone.

There are some Labour and Tory politicians I rate individually but I genuinely don’t know where I am politically anymore. Find Reform repellent.

I’m kind of hoping the gains reform are making will make other main parties pull themselves together so people could vote for them. There’s still time before the next election!

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:49

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 15:47

Aye. For me, I just wish people would come and loosely congregate around the centre a little more. Although there isn’t a political party that would align with that I don’t think

It’s not even what peoples views are for me, it’s the way they bully and berate anyone with different views. Disagreeing robustly is fine, but the vitriol thrown at, say gender critical women, for holding a perfectly reasonable view about biology, is not a good look and it’s pushing people further to the extremes.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:49

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:45

For one thing, I didn’t say anything about wanting g to engage with people. I’ve already said I don’t and won’t ever vote Reform - I’m a member of the Green Party, and yes, there is a subsection of the left who act like they’re the only ones who are right, moral and true and they are harming the cause massively. Calling them sanctimonious is nothing compared to what they say about people they don’t agree with.

I thought you were another poster. You'd know about people who think they're moral and true if you vote Green.

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 15:48

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:46

Yet this thread and your views are the epitome of weak, lazy stereotyping.

Why, because the OP used some hurty words?

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 15:47

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:40

Saying that some sanctimonious lefties are pushing people towards Reform is not the same thing as supporting them though.

Aye. For me, I just wish people would come and loosely congregate around the centre a little more. Although there isn’t a political party that would align with that I don’t think

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:46

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 15:44

I am happy to say I voted Reform, as an ex, what I thought was die hard Tory. You're proof that people are too worried to say they have turned to Reform. I'm OK with standing up to weak, lazy stereotyping; the very thing you accuse Reform voters of being; others might not be. Reformers aren't going to shrink away because it's convenient to you.

Yet this thread and your views are the epitome of weak, lazy stereotyping.

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:45

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:43

'Sanctimonious lefties', yet you claim to want to engage with people. Do you think people want to engage with you while you call them names and chat shit about them? There are other political parties, not just Reform.

For one thing, I didn’t say anything about wanting g to engage with people. I’ve already said I don’t and won’t ever vote Reform - I’m a member of the Green Party, and yes, there is a subsection of the left who act like they’re the only ones who are right, moral and true and they are harming the cause massively. Calling them sanctimonious is nothing compared to what they say about people they don’t agree with.

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 15:45

SillyMillie90 · 12/06/2025 15:22

"Startlingly" is such a key word isn't it. It sums up the woke brigade - they literally cannot understand how anyone can disagree with them or hold an alternative view.

This cartoon by The Oatmeal always springs to mind:

theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

I love that cartoon

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 15:44

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:38

I see. So Reform supporters are ruled by their emotions unable to withstand robust discussion and need someone to blame?

I am happy to say I voted Reform, as an ex, what I thought was die hard Tory. You're proof that people are too worried to say they have turned to Reform. I'm OK with standing up to weak, lazy stereotyping; the very thing you accuse Reform voters of being; others might not be. Reformers aren't going to shrink away because it's convenient to you.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:43

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:40

Saying that some sanctimonious lefties are pushing people towards Reform is not the same thing as supporting them though.

'Sanctimonious lefties', yet you claim to want to engage with people. Do you think people want to engage with you while you call them names and chat shit about them? There are other political parties, not just Reform.

SillyMillie90 · 12/06/2025 15:43

inkognitha · 12/06/2025 15:37

That is a fantastic cartoon, thx!
@SillyMillie90

It’s so on the nose. It actually discusses the Backfire Theory. Here’s a good link:

youarenotsosmart.com/2017/01/13/yanss-093-the-neuroscience-of-changing-your-mind/

“The research shows that when a strong-yet-erroneous belief is challenged … most people rebound and not only reassert their original belief at its original strength, but go beyond that and dig in their heels, deepening their resolve over the long run.

Psychologists call this the backfire effect”

The Backfire Effect

The Misconception: When your beliefs are challenged with facts, you alter your opinions and incorporate the new information into your thinking. The Truth: When your deepest convictions are challeng…

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/

TheaBrandt1 · 12/06/2025 15:42

I’m all over the place politically too. Was a left of centre centrist but after Cologne something switched. Then the trans issue / treatment of JKR was the nail in the coffin. Every issue women and girls hung out to dry by the left. Then the lefts anti semitism pro mass immigration with no thought for the consequences. I hate their virtue signalling smugness too. Maybe it’s perimenopause affecting my previous “be kind” ways which are now gone.

There are some Labour and Tory politicians I rate individually but I genuinely don’t know where I am politically anymore. Find Reform repellent.

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 15:40

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:39

I've noticed that as well. People arguing for Reform whilst denying they support them. It's very interesting.

Saying that some sanctimonious lefties are pushing people towards Reform is not the same thing as supporting them though.