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Great article in the Guardian about wokeism

337 replies

inkognitha · 11/06/2025 08:51

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/10/how-does-woke-start-winning-again

Good morning everyone.
Today, even the Guardian admits woke isn’t working.

« Yet Progressive Activists’ fatal flaw, the report argues, is that they’re further from mainstream public opinion on cultural issues than they realise. They’re the only group where a majority thinks that immigration should be as high or higher than it is now, and that protecting people from hate speech matters more than defending free speech (a key rationale behind “no debate” – the idea that trans identities aren’t up for discussion – and “no platforming”). They’re also the group most likely to think social change sometimes requires breaking the law, whereas two-thirds of Britons disapprove of protesters blocking roads or gluing themselves to things.
Tryl stresses that being outliers doesn’t invariably make Progressive Activists wrong – perhaps they’re just ahead of the curve, as the suffragettes once were – but it has important tactical implications. His polling shows that Progressive Activists overestimate by a factor of two to three how much others agree with their core beliefs, from abolishing the monarchy to letting children change gender. Consequently they tend to invest too little time on persuasion, focusing instead on mobilising the masses they wrongly imagine are on board. “If you’re reaching out to people, then you’re watering down,” is how Tryl describes this mindset.
While successful campaigns usually build the broadest base possible, Progressive Activists also tend to be purists, rejecting supporters who don’t endorse a complete worldview. (More than a quarter wouldn’t campaign alongside someone who believes – as a majority of Britons do – in Israel’s right to exist, for example.) Their yearning for grand systemic change means they can sound dismissive of other people’s small but well-meaning efforts, and they’re also unusually keen on correcting other people’s “mistakes” on diversity issues, something other groups consider likely to cause embarrassment. »

I hope some of the keyboard warriors/bullies roaming this board and the blue-haired, nose-pierced authoritarians will have a read, and at last, a think on how they do more harm than good.

How does woke start winning again? | Gaby Hinsliff

The long read: British progressives have suffered major setbacks in recent years, in both public opinion and court rulings. Was a backlash inevitable, and are new tactics needed?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/10/how-does-woke-start-winning-again

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
JHound · 12/06/2025 17:22

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 17:17

My interpretation is that it started as a term from the US black community to mean awake to social injustice/systemic racism and morphed into a mocking term for 'progressives' or activists or social justice warriors. In particular cancel culture or no platforming.

Oh to be clear I FULLY understand the original meaning.

No idea what the current meaning is.

JHound · 12/06/2025 17:21

FOJN · 12/06/2025 17:13

The definition of woke has evolved pretty quickly. People who described themselves as progressive were happy to embrace the term woke until very recently. When they started to receive criticism and even ridicule for some of their more absurd projects they claimed it was being used as a pejorative.

When I say absurd I'm talking about situations like Nicola Sturgeon trying to make the case for rapists being sent to women's prisons but totally fluffing it in TV interviews. She clearly didn't believe her own bullshit or she would have found it easier to defend.

I don’t think it’s either / or. Many people see themselves as “woke” (in the original
sense) but also acknowledge that how it is used now is just a meaningless pejorative.

Which is why the Barbie movie and Christmas adverts with black people are “woke”.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2025 17:19

JHound · 12/06/2025 17:03

That’s my point. I have no idea what it means because it seems to just be a catch-all phrase
for anything conservatives dislike.

Just like “conservatives” (small c) is a catch-all phrase for anybody with an opinion that people who consider themselves progressive disapprove of. Personally I don’t consider focussing on antiquated sex stereotypes rather than the reality of being born female particularly progressive. Or centring men who want to think as themselves as women over actual women. But apparently I’m wrong.

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 17:19

Theeyeballsinthesky · 12/06/2025 16:47

Exactly! People are free to believe the Earth is flat or balanced on the back of a giant turtle but they are demonstrably completely wrong.

people are free to believe transwomen are women and not men who are LARPing as women but they are also demonstrably wrong

and you can call us TERFS all day long but if doesn’t change facts

But your facts aren’t facts they are more like Trump’s “alternative facts”. You think a substantial part of the population is engaging in fantasy play, but what you can’t see is that it’s actually your own lack of understanding of trans experience that is causing the disconnect .

You are arguing that the earth is flat, because it looks flat to you- to the naked eye- this is your reality . and because of this you won’t listen to the scientists who are explaining why, even though it might appear to be flat from your perspective, it is in fact round.

JHound · 12/06/2025 17:17

Theeyeballsinthesky · 12/06/2025 17:05

Nope

i believe in climate change abd that we need to make plans to mitigate the effects and prevent further erosion

I believe that many institutions and organisations remain institutionally racist and sexist

I believe LGBTQ+ people are entitled too, and must have, the same human rights as everyone and should not be discriminated against

I do not believe men LARPing as women are actual women and they are not entitled to access women’s single sex spaces/places/programmes & initiatives

sorry if that doesn’t accord with your black and white world view

Edited

From the article:

”Trying to clarify what the UK public understands by the perennially slippery term “woke”, in 2022 the pollsters YouGov asked respondents how well it fitted various contemporary causes. The highest match – above trans rights, no-platforming people whose opinions you dislike, stronger action on climate change and the Black Lives Matter movement itself – was with removing historical statues associated with slavery, like that of Colston. Something about this combination of direct action against a highly symbolic target, and revisiting history through a modern social justice lens, meant that 61% considered it woke.
For some, that was perhaps a compliment. But by 2022, a word briefly synonymous with enlightened liberal consciousness – borrowed from a phrase used as far back as the 1930s by black Americans, urging each other to “stay woke’” to the threat of racial violence – was already becoming what the then Scottish first minister Nicola Sturgeon called “a pejorative term of abuse”.

So many would consider you “woke” while you would reject being categorised such.

Which really illuminates my point.

‘The word woke has become a pejorative term of abuse’, says Nicola Sturgeon

As the UK debates its heritage and history, what about its future?

https://www.channel4.com/news/the-word-woke-has-become-a-pejorative-term-of-abuse-says-nicola-sturgeon

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 17:17

JHound · 12/06/2025 17:03

That’s my point. I have no idea what it means because it seems to just be a catch-all phrase
for anything conservatives dislike.

My interpretation is that it started as a term from the US black community to mean awake to social injustice/systemic racism and morphed into a mocking term for 'progressives' or activists or social justice warriors. In particular cancel culture or no platforming.

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 17:14

Theeyeballsinthesky · 12/06/2025 17:05

Nope

i believe in climate change abd that we need to make plans to mitigate the effects and prevent further erosion

I believe that many institutions and organisations remain institutionally racist and sexist

I believe LGBTQ+ people are entitled too, and must have, the same human rights as everyone and should not be discriminated against

I do not believe men LARPing as women are actual women and they are not entitled to access women’s single sex spaces/places/programmes & initiatives

sorry if that doesn’t accord with your black and white world view

Edited

I’m totally aligned with you

FOJN · 12/06/2025 17:13

JHound · 12/06/2025 17:06

At least this is a definition.

But then this is why it causes confusion. As the recent Barbie and Little Mermaid movies were labelled “woke” and I cannot see how your definition applies to them.

The definition of woke has evolved pretty quickly. People who described themselves as progressive were happy to embrace the term woke until very recently. When they started to receive criticism and even ridicule for some of their more absurd projects they claimed it was being used as a pejorative.

When I say absurd I'm talking about situations like Nicola Sturgeon trying to make the case for rapists being sent to women's prisons but totally fluffing it in TV interviews. She clearly didn't believe her own bullshit or she would have found it easier to defend.

JHound · 12/06/2025 17:12

Theeyeballsinthesky · 12/06/2025 17:05

Nope

i believe in climate change abd that we need to make plans to mitigate the effects and prevent further erosion

I believe that many institutions and organisations remain institutionally racist and sexist

I believe LGBTQ+ people are entitled too, and must have, the same human rights as everyone and should not be discriminated against

I do not believe men LARPing as women are actual women and they are not entitled to access women’s single sex spaces/places/programmes & initiatives

sorry if that doesn’t accord with your black and white world view

Edited

What does this have to do with my post? Is this you saying you are not a conservative but believe “woke” exists but also chose not to define it?

So maybe it’s more accurate for me to say:

”The definition of “woke” appears to simply be a term used to describe anything the person using it dislikes”.

(Black and white world view - huh?!?!)

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 17:09

FOJN · 12/06/2025 16:48

Perhaps you should read the post being responded to again.

I'm fine thanks.

JHound · 12/06/2025 17:06

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 17:02

To me it means group-based progressivism, usually (?always) derived from critical social justice foundations, and often authoritarian.

So, plenty for conservatives to dislike (the progressivism, the critical social justice lens), and plenty for liberals to dislike too (the authoritarianism, and depending on the flavour of liberal, the critical social justice lens too).

At least this is a definition.

But then this is why it causes confusion. As the recent Barbie and Little Mermaid movies were labelled “woke” and I cannot see how your definition applies to them.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 12/06/2025 17:05

JHound · 12/06/2025 16:47

I have no idea if I dislike “woke” as I have zero idea what it means.

Seems to mean anything conservatives dislike.

Nope

i believe in climate change abd that we need to make plans to mitigate the effects and prevent further erosion

I believe that many institutions and organisations remain institutionally racist and sexist

I believe LGBTQ+ people are entitled too, and must have, the same human rights as everyone and should not be discriminated against

I do not believe men LARPing as women are actual women and they are not entitled to access women’s single sex spaces/places/programmes & initiatives

sorry if that doesn’t accord with your black and white world view

JHound · 12/06/2025 17:03

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 16:59

You have the definition wrong.

That’s my point. I have no idea what it means because it seems to just be a catch-all phrase
for anything conservatives dislike.

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 17:02

JHound · 12/06/2025 16:47

I have no idea if I dislike “woke” as I have zero idea what it means.

Seems to mean anything conservatives dislike.

To me it means group-based progressivism, usually (?always) derived from critical social justice foundations, and often authoritarian.

So, plenty for conservatives to dislike (the progressivism, the critical social justice lens), and plenty for liberals to dislike too (the authoritarianism, and depending on the flavour of liberal, the critical social justice lens too).

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 16:59

JHound · 12/06/2025 16:47

I have no idea if I dislike “woke” as I have zero idea what it means.

Seems to mean anything conservatives dislike.

You have the definition wrong.

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 16:54

Full house on the bingo card. Anyway OP, interesting piece from the Guardian, which is telling us Reform have got the two political big boys on the run. Thanks again, for sharing.

FOJN · 12/06/2025 16:48

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 16:34

I was talking about the author of the article.

Perhaps you should read the post being responded to again.

JHound · 12/06/2025 16:47

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 15:11

Do you consider your understanding of politics to be more complex than "woke" or "the hard right"? If yes, why are you trying to shoehorn people into just those two buckets?

Plenty of reasons from all sorts of political perspectives (including progressive ones) to rue the sort of things the Guardian article highlights.

For a start, there's a large middle ground of people who dislike significant parts of "woke" left and of the "hard right" for the same reason. The authoritarianism.

I'd say that describes most of the MN posters who dislike "woke". it's not because they think the hard right is great. Many of them don't think any right is great. They are squarely left-wing, but liberal left not authoritarian left.

Edited

I have no idea if I dislike “woke” as I have zero idea what it means.

Seems to mean anything conservatives dislike.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 12/06/2025 16:47

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 16:14

Material reality is true, it’s not a matter of what someone thinks. You’re free to think GC people are bigots, but you shouldn’t be free to silence them, harangue them, get them fired or send rape threats to them with impunity. Call me a bigot all day long, fine, but some of that other stuff has a silencing effect and that is wrong.

Exactly! People are free to believe the Earth is flat or balanced on the back of a giant turtle but they are demonstrably completely wrong.

people are free to believe transwomen are women and not men who are LARPing as women but they are also demonstrably wrong

and you can call us TERFS all day long but if doesn’t change facts

FOJN · 12/06/2025 16:47

StandFirm · 12/06/2025 16:43

Maybe some people have been put off by some behaviours that you attribute to wokeness and lean towards Reform as a reaction to that. It can also be true that Reform getting into power would go the way of MAGA and everything right now indicates that it's not a regime that promotes human rights. That makes me think Reform in power would promote bigotry. It's an observable phenomenon in other countries and Reform's no different.
For me it really boils down to not wanting to be ruled by fascists.

You are thinking about what Reform would be like in government rather than what is creating the shift in people's political affiliation now.

I could write an essay on why I'd be concerned about Reform as the governing party but that is not my point.

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 16:46

StandFirm · 12/06/2025 16:43

Maybe some people have been put off by some behaviours that you attribute to wokeness and lean towards Reform as a reaction to that. It can also be true that Reform getting into power would go the way of MAGA and everything right now indicates that it's not a regime that promotes human rights. That makes me think Reform in power would promote bigotry. It's an observable phenomenon in other countries and Reform's no different.
For me it really boils down to not wanting to be ruled by fascists.

Fascists 😆 🤣

JHound · 12/06/2025 16:46

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 15:06

I can't remember but I'm not sure that's important. I think it's very important to tell the 'woke' how very silly they are and how very sensible the hard right are.

😄

StandFirm · 12/06/2025 16:43

FOJN · 12/06/2025 16:20

If you hold a woke world view then everything you don't agree with is bigoted.

If the UK was a generally bigoted nation then a party like the BNP would have received far more support than they did.

What has changed to cause people to start rejecting the two main political parties in favour of a party like Reform? And why aren't you thinking more deeply about that instead of assuming it's because the country has transformed into a bigoted hell hole?

Maybe some people have been put off by some behaviours that you attribute to wokeness and lean towards Reform as a reaction to that. It can also be true that Reform getting into power would go the way of MAGA and everything right now indicates that it's not a regime that promotes human rights. That makes me think Reform in power would promote bigotry. It's an observable phenomenon in other countries and Reform's no different.
For me it really boils down to not wanting to be ruled by fascists.

Dangermoo · 12/06/2025 16:37

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 16:27

I wasn't aware she was a communist. You're not making things up are you?

Luxury communism: an oxymoron if ever I saw one.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 12/06/2025 16:34

FOJN · 12/06/2025 16:33

I won't do your research again, stop being lazy. Ash is very open about her communist leanings and has been for years. The fact that you don't know this tells me you have little to say that should be taken seriously by anyone.

https://youtube.com/shorts/egQpRNTyPHk?si=xLYL7CW6rPFNTxE6

Edited

I was talking about the author of the article.