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Great article in the Guardian about wokeism

337 replies

inkognitha · 11/06/2025 08:51

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/10/how-does-woke-start-winning-again

Good morning everyone.
Today, even the Guardian admits woke isn’t working.

« Yet Progressive Activists’ fatal flaw, the report argues, is that they’re further from mainstream public opinion on cultural issues than they realise. They’re the only group where a majority thinks that immigration should be as high or higher than it is now, and that protecting people from hate speech matters more than defending free speech (a key rationale behind “no debate” – the idea that trans identities aren’t up for discussion – and “no platforming”). They’re also the group most likely to think social change sometimes requires breaking the law, whereas two-thirds of Britons disapprove of protesters blocking roads or gluing themselves to things.
Tryl stresses that being outliers doesn’t invariably make Progressive Activists wrong – perhaps they’re just ahead of the curve, as the suffragettes once were – but it has important tactical implications. His polling shows that Progressive Activists overestimate by a factor of two to three how much others agree with their core beliefs, from abolishing the monarchy to letting children change gender. Consequently they tend to invest too little time on persuasion, focusing instead on mobilising the masses they wrongly imagine are on board. “If you’re reaching out to people, then you’re watering down,” is how Tryl describes this mindset.
While successful campaigns usually build the broadest base possible, Progressive Activists also tend to be purists, rejecting supporters who don’t endorse a complete worldview. (More than a quarter wouldn’t campaign alongside someone who believes – as a majority of Britons do – in Israel’s right to exist, for example.) Their yearning for grand systemic change means they can sound dismissive of other people’s small but well-meaning efforts, and they’re also unusually keen on correcting other people’s “mistakes” on diversity issues, something other groups consider likely to cause embarrassment. »

I hope some of the keyboard warriors/bullies roaming this board and the blue-haired, nose-pierced authoritarians will have a read, and at last, a think on how they do more harm than good.

How does woke start winning again? | Gaby Hinsliff

The long read: British progressives have suffered major setbacks in recent years, in both public opinion and court rulings. Was a backlash inevitable, and are new tactics needed?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/jun/10/how-does-woke-start-winning-again

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
MonTuesWeds · 12/06/2025 18:38

spoonbillstretford · 11/06/2025 09:28

Woke just means not causing deliberate offence or unfairly discriminating against or being prejudiced about group of people. It's not authoritarian or progressive but just about being a basic decent human being.

Edited

I honestly can't work out if you genuinely believe that

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 18:38

RalphWiggumsCrayon · 12/06/2025 18:34

This is what people say when they know they’re lying. If you have proof that a man can become a woman, post it. Show us all. I, for one, would be more than willing to change my mind if I had irrefutable proof that a male has, even just once, became a woman.

Aye - @Lostcat show us scientific proof! Settle the trans debate once and for all and I will agree with you

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 18:35

RalphWiggumsCrayon · 12/06/2025 18:34

This is what people say when they know they’re lying. If you have proof that a man can become a woman, post it. Show us all. I, for one, would be more than willing to change my mind if I had irrefutable proof that a male has, even just once, became a woman.

I rest my case

RalphWiggumsCrayon · 12/06/2025 18:35

And why do you keep implying that women who believe in biological reality are akin to flat-earthers? You’re the one who can’t back up what you’re saying with science @Lostcat.

RalphWiggumsCrayon · 12/06/2025 18:34

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 18:31

the problem isn’t me, or my lack of science , or my wokism or my ineffective skills in persuasion. There are all kinds of resources out there. I’d also be very happy to talk things through with you.

But you have already decided what you know, what the “facts” are, what “reality” is, based on your perception: “common sense.” The earth is flat because you can see it is flat, with your very own eyes. You are standing on it now , and not falling off!

Men are men and women are women, and nobody has ever changed sex!

When you say “prove otherwise” to me it’s not because you’re curious. It’s not because you think there is a possibility - however small- that the earth might in fact be round after all and you want to hear why. it’s because you want to show to yourself and others that I can’t- you want to satisfy yourself that I am stupid, or crazy, or lying. Or possibly all three. Either I engage and you berate me. Or I decline and you win. Either way, ultimately you will exhaust me until I decline to reply and you will have satisfied yourself that you won.

Edited

This is what people say when they know they’re lying. If you have proof that a man can become a woman, post it. Show us all. I, for one, would be more than willing to change my mind if I had irrefutable proof that a male has, even just once, became a woman.

soupycustard · 12/06/2025 18:33

These attempts to define woke are maybe an example of how 'woke' has changed. As someone concerned about climate change many moons ago I was termed 'woke' and one of the things that was hard to deal with was that those who disagreed with taking action in relation to anthropomorphic climate change would constantly move the goalposts in debate - you'd say one thing and the response would never be a specific response to that thing but something else entirely.
Now that I'm apparently a 'bigot' I find exactly the same problem trying to discuss women's rights in the context of trans activism. Whataboutery and this weirdly humpty-dumpty approach to the use of language.
In both cases, that makes it impossible to have a sensible discussion. Except now it's even worse because climate change is hugely complex and multi-faceted, but there being two sexes isn't.

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 18:31

RalphWiggumsCrayon · 12/06/2025 18:15

Show us the science and we’ll do better.

the problem isn’t me, or my lack of science , or my wokism or my ineffective skills in persuasion. There are all kinds of resources out there. I’d also be very happy to talk things through with you.

But you have already decided what you know, what the “facts” are, what “reality” is, based on your perception: “common sense.” The earth is flat because you can see it is flat, with your very own eyes. You are standing on it now , and not falling off!

Men are men and women are women, and nobody has ever changed sex!

When you say “prove otherwise” to me it’s not because you’re curious. It’s not because you think there is a possibility - however small- that the earth might in fact be round after all and you want to hear why. it’s because you want to show to yourself and others that I can’t- you want to satisfy yourself that I am stupid, or crazy, or lying. Or possibly all three. Either I engage and you berate me. Or I decline and you win. Either way, ultimately you will exhaust me until I decline to reply and you will have satisfied yourself that you won.

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 18:28

JHound · 12/06/2025 18:09

But it’s not even group based progressivism given the story is unchanged and TLM was never a progressive story.

And if progressivism is about remoulding as opposed to reflecting, then ethnically diverse casting is the opposite of progressivism

Edited

I’ll leave the first point as I’m not sure I’ve got much more to add.

Mixed-race casting of a story in modern London, or quant finance, or whatever wouldn’t signal any attempt to shape, I agree. Mixed race casting of a story set in Shogunate Japan, or most of those quaint pre-war English rural murder mysteries probably does.

But I’m not trying to push some edgy or pejorative definition of progressive here. I think just as a straight definition at its base it’s a project concerned with shaping and improving, just as conservatism is about preserving and preventing decay. Anyone sensible draws on both.

RalphWiggumsCrayon · 12/06/2025 18:15

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 18:15

And that’s a you problem 🤷🏼‍♀️

Show us the science and we’ll do better.

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 18:15

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 18:13

I’m sorry I just can’t take this seriously.

And that’s a you problem 🤷🏼‍♀️

RalphWiggumsCrayon · 12/06/2025 18:14

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 17:55

How is that DARVO 😂

I assume she meant calling other people anti-science flat-earthers when it’s actually you spouting the anti-science bullshit, but in any case, why have you commented on her use of DARVO but not provided any of the science she asked for? You do have some proof, right? I’m sure we’re all dying to see it.

WhereIsMyJumper · 12/06/2025 18:13

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 17:35

So it’s not a fact that males are always male whatever cosmetic surgery they get or hormones they take

nope. this is an ideological - tautological - claim with an imprecise scientific meaning.

Or that women are most at risk from men

this is not an “objective truth” about the world - it’s a social reality. Furthermore “men” is a social category.

I’m sorry I just can’t take this seriously.

JHound · 12/06/2025 18:09

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 17:39

I’ve given my best shot at explaining already, albeit based on a quick Google only.

At risk of repeating myself, it’s not especially authoritarian, but I do see group-based progressivism.

The fact it’s a remake doesn’t mean it must be or can’t be woke.

Though it does give us an interesting additional way to consider the progressive dimension (ie the desire to remould rather than reflect society). Does the original movie represent the ‘reflect’ version, and the deviations the remoulding? Or does a remake by definition ‘reset’ what is canon?

But it’s not even group based progressivism given the story is unchanged and TLM was never a progressive story.

And if progressivism is about remoulding as opposed to reflecting, then ethnically diverse casting is the opposite of progressivism

JHound · 12/06/2025 18:07

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 17:40

(@JHound I’ve not said anything about the changes being positive or negative. Not sure if that was aimed at me or just a musing).

Musing.

As those who use the term outside of its
original meaning think it is a negative (although I genuinely don’t see how either of the films I mentioned meets even your definition.)

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 17:55

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 17:38

Bullshit. Show me the science that man can become a woman.

What’s the difference between a social reality and an objective truth? if 98 prevent of sex crimes are committed by males (however they identify) how is it not objective truth that women are at greatest risk from men?

You have the cheek to say other people are the equivalent of flat-earthers! Classic TRA DARVO though.

How is that DARVO 😂

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 17:40

(@JHound I’ve not said anything about the changes being positive or negative. Not sure if that was aimed at me or just a musing).

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 17:39

JHound · 12/06/2025 17:31

How does the little mermaid movie fit the concept
of “group based progressivism and authoritarianism” when it’s simply a live action remake of a disney film? (The Mermaids were always mixed sex).

So consent and mixed ethnicity representation is what people mean by “woke”.

It’s disturbing either are seen as negative.

Edited

I’ve given my best shot at explaining already, albeit based on a quick Google only.

At risk of repeating myself, it’s not especially authoritarian, but I do see group-based progressivism.

The fact it’s a remake doesn’t mean it must be or can’t be woke.

Though it does give us an interesting additional way to consider the progressive dimension (ie the desire to remould rather than reflect society). Does the original movie represent the ‘reflect’ version, and the deviations the remoulding? Or does a remake by definition ‘reset’ what is canon?

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 17:38

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 17:35

So it’s not a fact that males are always male whatever cosmetic surgery they get or hormones they take

nope. this is an ideological - tautological - claim with an imprecise scientific meaning.

Or that women are most at risk from men

this is not an “objective truth” about the world - it’s a social reality. Furthermore “men” is a social category.

Bullshit. Show me the science that man can become a woman.

What’s the difference between a social reality and an objective truth? if 98 prevent of sex crimes are committed by males (however they identify) how is it not objective truth that women are at greatest risk from men?

You have the cheek to say other people are the equivalent of flat-earthers! Classic TRA DARVO though.

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 17:35

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 17:22

So it’s not a fact that males are always male whatever cosmetic surgery they get or hormones they take? Or that women are most at risk from men? I think you’ll find those are both objective facts. Gender is a concept or belief, which people are free to believe or not, just like any other concept or belief like a flat earth or a loving God.

Facts exist. Material reality exists. Even if some people don’t like it.

Edited

So it’s not a fact that males are always male whatever cosmetic surgery they get or hormones they take

nope. this is an ideological - tautological - claim with an imprecise scientific meaning.

Or that women are most at risk from men

this is not an “objective truth” about the world - it’s a social reality. Furthermore “men” is a social category.

JHound · 12/06/2025 17:31

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 17:28

I haven’t seen either but Googled Little Mermaid and it seems to fit my definition fairly well, albeit not every branch of it.

Certainly progressive (using cultural institutions to shape rather than reflect society, in a liberal or leftward direction, eg the rewriting of the kiss the girl song to emphasise verbal consent, the emphasis on environmentalism), and emphasising group-based representation (the mermaids now being a mixed sex and mixed race group).

I can’t say I saw any authoritarianism or CSJ thought in my brief look.

How does the little mermaid movie fit the concept
of “group based progressivism and authoritarianism” when it’s simply a live action remake of a disney film? (The Mermaids were always mixed sex).

So consent and mixed ethnicity representation is what people mean by “woke”.

It’s disturbing either are seen as negative.

GeneralPeter · 12/06/2025 17:28

JHound · 12/06/2025 17:06

At least this is a definition.

But then this is why it causes confusion. As the recent Barbie and Little Mermaid movies were labelled “woke” and I cannot see how your definition applies to them.

I haven’t seen either but Googled Little Mermaid and it seems to fit my definition fairly well, albeit not every branch of it.

Certainly progressive (using cultural institutions to shape rather than reflect society, in a liberal or leftward direction, eg the rewriting of the kiss the girl song to emphasise verbal consent, the emphasis on environmentalism), and emphasising group-based representation (the mermaids now being a mixed sex and mixed race group).

I can’t say I saw any authoritarianism or CSJ thought in my brief look.

ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 17:26

I can’t believe some people think that subjective feelings trump actual facts and that anyone who says no to that is a bigot, and we wonder why we’re in such a mess.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 12/06/2025 17:26

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 17:19

But your facts aren’t facts they are more like Trump’s “alternative facts”. You think a substantial part of the population is engaging in fantasy play, but what you can’t see is that it’s actually your own lack of understanding of trans experience that is causing the disconnect .

You are arguing that the earth is flat, because it looks flat to you- to the naked eye- this is your reality . and because of this you won’t listen to the scientists who are explaining why, even though it might appear to be flat from your perspective, it is in fact round.

Edited

I’m sure you’ll be able to explain the science that changes a male pelvis into a female one

Great article in the Guardian about wokeism
ChungkingDepressed · 12/06/2025 17:22

Lostcat · 12/06/2025 17:19

But your facts aren’t facts they are more like Trump’s “alternative facts”. You think a substantial part of the population is engaging in fantasy play, but what you can’t see is that it’s actually your own lack of understanding of trans experience that is causing the disconnect .

You are arguing that the earth is flat, because it looks flat to you- to the naked eye- this is your reality . and because of this you won’t listen to the scientists who are explaining why, even though it might appear to be flat from your perspective, it is in fact round.

Edited

So it’s not a fact that males are always male whatever cosmetic surgery they get or hormones they take? Or that women are most at risk from men? I think you’ll find those are both objective facts. Gender is a concept or belief, which people are free to believe or not, just like any other concept or belief like a flat earth or a loving God.

Facts exist. Material reality exists. Even if some people don’t like it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/06/2025 17:22

FOJN · 12/06/2025 17:13

The definition of woke has evolved pretty quickly. People who described themselves as progressive were happy to embrace the term woke until very recently. When they started to receive criticism and even ridicule for some of their more absurd projects they claimed it was being used as a pejorative.

When I say absurd I'm talking about situations like Nicola Sturgeon trying to make the case for rapists being sent to women's prisons but totally fluffing it in TV interviews. She clearly didn't believe her own bullshit or she would have found it easier to defend.

Exactly. She and Hamza had no logical argument, because they don’t actually believe that these men are really women.