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Original poster

To think I’m not the toxic person in this situation?

93 replies

WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:08

I’ve posted on this already, under a misleading title. Many apologies. If you’re still interested …

I have known for years that my BiL was not an easy person. He and my sister met at a very traumatic time in our family history and were engaged very quickly. I’ve always felt uncomfortable around him. I’ve told myself it’s envy and other unworthy things. She and I haven’t seen much of each other over the years but I thought we were close.

Nearly 2 years ago he did something that I felt was disrespectful and contemptuous towards me. Regrettably, I made a nasty comment to her on WhatsApp. I know I should have tackled him directly.
She described herself as devastated and when I rang to apologize she told me that I’d insinuated things I absolutely hadn’t even thought. The row went on for weeks. I honestly think I was trying to defend myself against false accusations but she took everything as an attack.

We were NC for some months until I dipped a toe back in the water. She responded very nicely, only stipulating that the past must never again be mentioned.

I apologized repeatedly for my words. She thinks she apologized for hers, but it was very much ‘You made me say it’. She’s never accepted my apologies in so many words. ‘I’m sorry’ was met by silence.

I’ve since heard stories about my BiL from my daughters and DiL that make me think he’s a narcissist or at least a genuine creep. My sister was so horrible and unforgiving and seems to have forgotten that now.

I think he’s a narcissist and she’s absolutely in thrall to him. Or maybe she’s right and I’ve always been the problem? I’m not sure which would be worse tbh.

Thank you, you’re a kind and patient bunch xx

OP posts:
Original poster
WartFace · 09/06/2025 17:09

ConversationsWithFrenemies · 09/06/2025 16:50

I was on your other thread, and you're still asking the wrong question on this one! You seem obsessed with 'toxicity', as if it's some diagnosable condition you can test for, like Covid or pregnancy.

You experience both your BIL and sometimes your sister as 'toxic' in the sense that they behave in ways you find reprehensible, but the thing is, 'toxicity' in the sense you mean it is entirely subjective, and they almost certainly experience you as 'toxic' too. A bunch of internet strangers can say 'There there, the other two are nasty' but it makes no difference to anything. It only makes you feel validated.

Fundamentally, it doesn't matter. I asked on your other thread what you want going forward. Ultimately you're choosing between an ongoing relationship with your sister and your own need for 'validation' via an apology and a hashing out of the altercation that she has specifically said she will not do.

That is what you should be thinking about, what you want to happen with your sister and you, not ruminating endlessly over a long-past argument.

Honestly, and in the nicest possible way, I think you should look at your drinking, and don't have arguments via WhatsApp.

Thank you again for reading my posts carefully and for your well intentioned advice. I’ve stopped drinking (months ago) and have certainly stopped having arguments with anyone.

All I wanted was possible reassurance that I’m not as awful as I worry that I am. I posted in entirely good faith. One person validated my experience and I’m deeply grateful for that.

I’ve been accused of lying and only giving one side of my story. I know the truth and it doesn’t matter to me if strangers think they know better. I’m not going to try and justify myself any more. I’ll be grateful for any genuinely helpful and compassionate advice.

OP posts:
TheNightSurgeon · 09/06/2025 16:53

WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:51

No, gaslighting is when you try to make someone question their own experience. I can assure you that everything I’ve said is true.

Show quote history

That poster said they didn't believe you, that's not gaslighting.

Original poster
WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:53

ConversationsWithFrenemies · 09/06/2025 16:51

And yes definitely to therapy. Your sense of self seems very wobbly.

Well that’s definitely true.

OP posts:
saltinesandcoffeecups · 09/06/2025 16:52

WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:47

My daughter is autistic and my BiL knows that.

Show quote history

It has nothing to do with her being autistic. It does have to do if your parents were toxic and you also seem to have some toxic traits.

Intergenerational toxicity, if you will.

Original poster
WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:51

TheNightSurgeon · 09/06/2025 16:48

This is also you being toxic.

Using a word ike "gaslighting" because a poster doesn't believe something you've said is ridiculous.

I think you should probably step away from trying to get online validation and seek some rl help.

Show quote history

No, gaslighting is when you try to make someone question their own experience. I can assure you that everything I’ve said is true.

OP posts:
ConversationsWithFrenemies · 09/06/2025 16:51

And yes definitely to therapy. Your sense of self seems very wobbly.

ConversationsWithFrenemies · 09/06/2025 16:50

I was on your other thread, and you're still asking the wrong question on this one! You seem obsessed with 'toxicity', as if it's some diagnosable condition you can test for, like Covid or pregnancy.

You experience both your BIL and sometimes your sister as 'toxic' in the sense that they behave in ways you find reprehensible, but the thing is, 'toxicity' in the sense you mean it is entirely subjective, and they almost certainly experience you as 'toxic' too. A bunch of internet strangers can say 'There there, the other two are nasty' but it makes no difference to anything. It only makes you feel validated.

Fundamentally, it doesn't matter. I asked on your other thread what you want going forward. Ultimately you're choosing between an ongoing relationship with your sister and your own need for 'validation' via an apology and a hashing out of the altercation that she has specifically said she will not do.

That is what you should be thinking about, what you want to happen with your sister and you, not ruminating endlessly over a long-past argument.

Honestly, and in the nicest possible way, I think you should look at your drinking, and don't have arguments via WhatsApp.

Nosetotoe · 09/06/2025 16:49

WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:46

You’re calling me a liar? I accept that I’m probably obsessing but what you just did was gaslighting.

Show quote history

Oh good grief

Put down your glass OP. Hide the thread. And don’t pick up the phone. You’re spiralling

TheNightSurgeon · 09/06/2025 16:48

WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:46

You’re calling me a liar? I accept that I’m probably obsessing but what you just did was gaslighting.

Show quote history

This is also you being toxic.

Using a word ike "gaslighting" because a poster doesn't believe something you've said is ridiculous.

I think you should probably step away from trying to get online validation and seek some rl help.

Original poster
WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:47

saltinesandcoffeecups · 09/06/2025 16:40

Based on the fact you’re here looking for sign, I’d say that therapy could be helpful. You said in the other thread there were issues with your parents that you believed were part of the problem it wouldn’t be surprising you have some things to work out.

In the meantime don’t try to ‘fix’ your sister. You really have no idea if her husband is toxic. It could very well be that you and your sister (and daughter) all show toxic traits.

Show quote history

My daughter is autistic and my BiL knows that.

OP posts:
Original poster
WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:46

Nosetotoe · 09/06/2025 16:43

Do you work? Have friends? Hobbies?

I think you have far too much time to stew on this op

and I don’t believe you’ve stopped drinking

Show quote history

You’re calling me a liar? I accept that I’m probably obsessing but what you just did was gaslighting.

OP posts:
Original poster
WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:44

TheNightSurgeon · 09/06/2025 16:41

It's based on how you're talking.

Giving half stories, the half that makes them look bad, and downplaying your roll in it all.

You needing validation that you're right and they are wrong based on an extremely bias version of events.

All toxic traits.

Show quote history

I’ve told you my role. I know I made a nasty comment. I did nothing else. Does that really mean no punishment is enough and I can never be forgiven?

OP posts:
Nosetotoe · 09/06/2025 16:43

WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:42

I’ve stopped. It hasn’t faded. It’s hard to be told this is ‘daft’ but this is only SM I suppose.

Show quote history

Do you work? Have friends? Hobbies?

I think you have far too much time to stew on this op

and I don’t believe you’ve stopped drinking

Original poster
WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:42

Nosetotoe · 09/06/2025 16:35

Ok op
You need to stop drinking
and I suspect this will all fade and you’ll realise how daft you were being

no doubt your family is concerned about you op

Show quote history

I’ve stopped. It hasn’t faded. It’s hard to be told this is ‘daft’ but this is only SM I suppose.

OP posts:
Nosetotoe · 09/06/2025 16:42

WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:40

Can you explain why you think that please?

Show quote history

Oh op

just stop drinking and all this will clear up

TheNightSurgeon · 09/06/2025 16:41

WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:35

Is this based on what I originally said to my sister?

Show quote history

It's based on how you're talking.

Giving half stories, the half that makes them look bad, and downplaying your roll in it all.

You needing validation that you're right and they are wrong based on an extremely bias version of events.

All toxic traits.

Original poster
WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:40

AnyoneWhoHasAHeart · 09/06/2025 16:37

It’s you not them.

Can you explain why you think that please?

OP posts:
saltinesandcoffeecups · 09/06/2025 16:40

WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:30

I come from such a dysfunctional family that I have no idea whether I’m a narcissist or not. If I thought I was the only one in the wrong here, I’d get myself some therapy.

Show quote history

Based on the fact you’re here looking for sign, I’d say that therapy could be helpful. You said in the other thread there were issues with your parents that you believed were part of the problem it wouldn’t be surprising you have some things to work out.

In the meantime don’t try to ‘fix’ your sister. You really have no idea if her husband is toxic. It could very well be that you and your sister (and daughter) all show toxic traits.

AnyoneWhoHasAHeart · 09/06/2025 16:37

It’s you not them.

Nosetotoe · 09/06/2025 16:35

WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:34

Yes, the one occasion when I accept that I was out of order, I was drinking. But her response seemed so out of proportion that I began to wonder if I’d touched a nerve.

It was a WhatsApp conversation and she was being defensive and then switched to rather patronizing. I said ‘Is that still you talking or is it OH?’ That’s all I said. She said afterwards that they were both devastated and didn’t sleep. Apparently I’d accused him of financial dishonesty. I hadn’t.

Show quote history

Ok op
You need to stop drinking
and I suspect this will all fade and you’ll realise how daft you were being

no doubt your family is concerned about you op

Original poster
WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:35

TheNightSurgeon · 09/06/2025 16:25

Having read the last thread and now this one I do think that you're coming across as a toxic family member tbh.

That's not to say they aren't as well, but I definitely think you need to do some soul searching.

Is this based on what I originally said to my sister?

OP posts:
Original poster
WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:34

Nosetotoe · 09/06/2025 16:27

Op, I meanthis gently, but do you have a drink problem and these occurrences tend to happen during a drinking session?

Yes, the one occasion when I accept that I was out of order, I was drinking. But her response seemed so out of proportion that I began to wonder if I’d touched a nerve.

It was a WhatsApp conversation and she was being defensive and then switched to rather patronizing. I said ‘Is that still you talking or is it OH?’ That’s all I said. She said afterwards that they were both devastated and didn’t sleep. Apparently I’d accused him of financial dishonesty. I hadn’t.

OP posts:
Original poster
WartFace · 09/06/2025 16:30

saltinesandcoffeecups · 09/06/2025 16:25

Thank you, Fair enough… what happens if you don’t get that validation? What will that change for you?

Show quote history

I come from such a dysfunctional family that I have no idea whether I’m a narcissist or not. If I thought I was the only one in the wrong here, I’d get myself some therapy.

OP posts:
Nosetotoe · 09/06/2025 16:27

Op, I meanthis gently, but do you have a drink problem and these occurrences tend to happen during a drinking session?

TheNightSurgeon · 09/06/2025 16:25

Having read the last thread and now this one I do think that you're coming across as a toxic family member tbh.

That's not to say they aren't as well, but I definitely think you need to do some soul searching.