To think there’s a real crisis in men being able to express how they truly feel about life and society?

I think the only real true oppressed in the UK today are the uneducated/low intelligent and the poor. They have no status in society, they are often unable to articulate themselves well (hence shouty online posts that get them put in prison instead of educated) because they're a very easy target. Nobody will stick up for them, they're generally 'unlikeable' because they're often "rough", make poor decisions (smoke, drink, take drugs ) and have no or very low level employment. Like this "class" of people or not : but stripped down, they're probably the only truly oppressed and discriminated group in today's society in real world terms. Nice to berate them and make examples of Mrs online shouty face too. Get some bonus points from the minority groups. Education would often be a better option as these online rants often come from a place of ignorance, low intelligence, inability to articulate civilly and general frustration thats very different to actual racism and discrimination.

Wow! I could be wrong but this comment doesn't make you sound wholly supportive...

Deflection. No one has said all.

But when the Met Police was headed by a woman and was still found to have institutional problems of rape, harassment and abuse, you will forgive me if I ignore your deflection and women blaming.

Well exactly, this is the problem isn't it ? Division does not equal cohesion

In this thread: you can't be racist against white men, there's never discrimination against men in hiring, men's problems aren't women's to solve, men are all rapists and child-abandoners who don't deserve sympathy...

I mean fair play if that's your view but don't then wonder about why men only seek support from their insane hard-right gamer group chats instead of discussing their issues calmly with their girlfriends...

I think you'll find there's been a fair few attacks in the western world from non westerners. I stand by my points. I don't believe singular people have more power because they're white. Absolutely not.

Women are being silenced more than men.

Yes, of course there will be instances where due to an unusual set of circumstances a white man may find himself at the wrong end of a power dynamic. However, these instances will be situation specific, and the wider context of greater power held by his demographic make it easier for him to move away from that situation into one of multiple alternatives where his race and sex will revert to the default of being an advantage. And no, I'm not saying he should have to. I'm just drawing the distinction between having a negative experience due to an anomaly and being part of a group where the experience is part of a pattern and systemic.

That's not quite true though is it?

Rape for example, may as well be legal - conviction rates are so low - and that affects both men and women, but vastly disproportionately women.

Vastly more women and children are in poverty vs. men - in part driven by society's continuing inability to require men to take full responsibility for their children. The burden hugely placed on women, with men able to walk away, and with poor CMS enforcement of what is a tiny amount of the costs of raising a child, largely scott free. This then impacts women in retirement, having had no chance to build up an independent pot, contributing to the majority of pensioners in poverty being women (also age of death obviously).

Then there is still unconscious bias in hiring (google has some excellent training on this), resulting in lower wages for women (which yes, is illegal, but very hard to prosecute), and AI/HR hiring practices which hire 'more like the ones we already have' ie. more blokes in bloke dominated positions, and women in women dominated ones.

Then there's the fundamental issue that men and women just aren't the same. Women are smaller, and the only ones who can get pregnant. Even things like cars are made for the average man, and so women are more likely to die in accidents because everything is that little bit too big for them.

Drug research, healthcare - all biased towards men and male bodies, we're fighting to change it, but it's still true as of today.

To suggest we've 'made it' is hopelessly naive, and to say that recognising that is promoting victimhood is ridiculous.

I don’t disagree with that, and you are spot on “on a societal level”. But prejudice and discrimination can impact on an individual level.

men as a class won’t be harmed by it. A man as an individual may be.

Not a single person has said women cant vote or have bank accounts.
What we have said is we don't care that much about male loneliness because they can sort it themselves. Really not the same.

I don’t think this is for women to solve.

LOUDER PLEASE!

Yeah I have not noticed this. Not with the explosion of social media and Men With Microphones.

I think people confuse “men being allowed to express their views” with “people bending to their will.

I think in 2025 it's hard to argue that women don't have at least some systemic power - the "long march through the institutions" has benefited us in many cases. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it's a bit to talk about how we're institutionally oppressed as if it's 1900 and we're not allowed to vote and have bank accounts.

What do you define as racism? And what harm does it cause to those on the receiving end of it? Because its important to seperate prejudice, which is about feelings, and discrimination, which is about action that causes harm. Anyone can feel prejudice against anyone else, but not everyone has the power to turn that feeling into an act of harm. So when people say white people can't experience racism, and men can't experience sexism, they are pointing out that while people may hold negative views about people because they are white or male, they lack the power on a societal level to translate those feelings to harm. Because of this, 'racism against white people' and 'misandry' can never be the equal opposite to racism against people of colour and misogyny.

I disagree with all of this.

Only men can solve this. Men have to model to young boys what they want them to see. If boys do not see it then it will be normalised that it is hidden. If boys see it then it will be normalised as a visible.

It has to come from men though.

I can see on this thread that some women are revelling in the 'victim' mentality. It's really not helping in this society today. Our future and that of our children is doomed if we carry on like this.

It's 2025! Women are no longer discriminated against. It's literally illegal! We haven't ever had it so good (and rightly so!) yet here we are, still playing victims. I can't help but feel some women on here read black Mumsnet or Muslim Mumsnetters for example see the "go away you don't get an opinion on our oppression" and think "I want me some of that !". It's getting old and tired.

Will pockets of racists, misogynists, homophobes always exist ? Always. Do we allow it legally? in employment? No. Are most people tolerant and accepting in general ? I believe so. But just as we solve the worst of the discrimination, in comes the "new speak" : "micro aggressions" and such like. All this "them and us" division, is merely swapping the oppressed and the oppressor - that's not equality. Just the oh so "educated" are so tangled up in being "educated" they can't see it.

Being vaguely indifferent to male loneliness and not being ' kind' is not the same as being an incel. The very fact that this comparison was made by posters shows how indifferent society has become to male violence.

I need to be on social media for my job.
I have lost count of the number of rape and death threats I have got. Reporting does no good whatsoever. These men could be out starting clubs or playing golf. But what they are doing is threatening women. I wonder why that is. No doubt I am just sowing division, as a pp said

A lot of issues for men are not evenly distributed - they are much more a "sex of extremes" than women are.

A small proportion will be rapists, or become mega-wealthy startup founders, or have sex with 100 women, or go on a killing spree, etc etc. Some men will have 20+ children but, for example, more men than women will also never have children - life isn't quite zero-sum for men, but it's more competitive than it is for women. Women tend to cluster more tightly in the middle (i.e. be basically normal and not extreme).

I think one of the problems we have when we talk about men is we discuss extremes as if they were averages.

This is as true for the ardent feminist who says we need to constantly remind all boys to not be rapists, as for the Andrew Tate figure who says boys should aim to be one of the sex-with-100-women winners.

When most men need a template for how to be a normal married man in the suburbs with 2 kids and regular social football practice. (But we're allergic to normative advice these days...)

White men are privileged. I don’t think anyone can dispute that.

one of the problems though is that privilege does not mean that every single white male will be successful, or will even see any of that privilege at all. When they struggle, to be then told that they are part of that privileged group so should shut up, only adds to the feelings of failure. “I had all that advantage and still I’m a failure”

Yes, Atwood has claimed that feminism should be inclusive of trans women. That women should affirm trans identities. That the defense of the word woman is mis-guided. And other bits of nonsense.

This.

I think the reasons they're keeping them bottled up might be significant.

To judge by what is said by so many on mens forums/twitter etc. I'd suggest that some things are kept bottled up because they know the opinions are deplorable.

On an individual level, outside of medical mental health issues my experience is that it's cowardice and laziness - not wanting to experience the repercussions of (for example) saying they're unhappy in their marriage and they want to leave. And I count it as cowardice, because my ex certainly felt that way, yet he chose to cheat and keep me as childcare/housekeeper/administrative assistant rather than just tell me and deal with the consequences (he left that to me, after torturing me with his behaviour for years until I finally realised he wasn't depressed, just a shit)

Would you care to say exactly what gender woo is and how Atwood does this?