Cancelling a day out due to misbehaviour.

This thread is very interesting. Has made me wonder op, between you and your husband who both parent and were raised differently, who is happiest? Who is the most joyful day to day? No agenda just interest

We had a very similar scenario pop up when my DS was 3. He did something he knew he shouldn't, repeatedly in front of us despite us saying not to (whilst getting across the room to stop him).
We had a big day out planned, an event so not like we could just go another day.

We went on the day out, my DH actually had to stay home to sort what my DS had done but it would of meant several people including myself, other family and other DC missing out if we hadn't gone.
DS doesnt realise his dad lost out that day, for his behaviour.
I was praised for my strict parenting with my first born, my DS? Nothing I did with my first works.

You need to parent the child you have, not the one you want.
Absolutely encourage apologies, manners and polite behaviour but also remember that your child is learning, and they learn by doing the wrong thing as much as the right thing, it's not a one lesson and your taught situation.

I agree, you ANBU. Children need rules. The world lives by rules. Where children don't understand a consequence or understand about following rules, you end up with kids who don't care.
We're fairly strict and over the years my kids have suffered consequences. But we have children that understand things can only be pushed so far, actions have a consequences and sometimes you have to own an action and that apologies need to be made.
Hopefully your DS realises that behaviour led him to miss out on xyz

Then fair play to the parent who had the balls to say, "Right, that's it, no fun day out for you!"

Actions have consequences. If he's old enough to know full well he shouldn't have done it, then he's old enough to understand the cancelled day out as a result - especially as OP mentions the refusal to apologise & it being something that they're working on, so this sort of behaviour is obviously not an isolated incident.

How can you allow a child to wilfully do that, knowing it's wrong & then 5 mins later, when he's refused to even apologise, bundle him into a car for a fun day out with the family- including the person he's 'hurt'??

No, I meant gentle parenting.

It's subjective I guess whether the punishment for the child in this case is overly punitive. I'd suggest it wasn't as it didn't impact the child too harshly IMO.

In my experience the consequence of behaviours (good or bad) have to be immediate for a young child to really make the connection between the action and reaction.
In this case I don't think that your DC will really have understood that the reason he wasn't going out was because he threw a cup a while ago. At 3 and a half they go where they are taken so not going somewhere won't have had an impact anyway.
I would have taken my DC out of the room immediately and isolated them from the fun of doting family. I would have explained why and also why what they had done was so bad. I would have let them back after a short while but ask family not to make fuss.
At that age an apology is just words but I would have tried to make the connection that throwing the cup had really hurt someone he loves. I may have asked them to ask Grandad if his leg was still sore and could he do anything to make him feel better.

I think just apologise to your parents that the day was spoiled.

Have you tried rewarding good behaviour and totally ignoring behaviour? As in over the top with the good behaviour, DC wil be totally surprised at the beginning but it really does work. Fantastic breathing DC, look dad at how well DC is at eating their cereal etc, etc, etc.

Last night I did not see that the tea was cold before beginning my post.

However that is a very fine distinction for a 3.5 yo hurling a teacup to make. This behaviour must be stopped before someone is scalded.

Perhaps a different consequence would have resonated more, but given that DS made the connection between hurling the teacup and missing the event at bedtime, this seems to have done the job. That link was good but IMO not unusual for a bright child.

However, OP, those making the point that if his behaviour is escalating the consequences may be too harsh may well be on to something. Also, you and DH need to find a good middle ground.

When you look back at your parenting in years to come you will never regret being soft hearted with your dc, you will however regret being unnecessarily hard on them.
My two are adults and I can remember every incident where I should have been more chilled and mine were generally very well behaved dc.

Your 3.5 year old knows what he did was wrong because he’s been told throwing is wrong. However he doesn’t understand that throwing could result in pain or damage, not properly.
His childhood years will pass so quickly, enjoy them.

My youngest was similarly impulsive and unrepentant at that age. At the time we almost lost our minds over it on occasion! Their self-control and emotional insight are not well-developed at that age (less than a year from toddlerhood!), and I don't think a punishment like the one you describe will achieve anything more than what a more immediate and less globally disruptive punishment, such as a timeout, in the moment would have.

Stern telling off immediately. If child tantrums remove from situation until calm.

Child to check on Grandpa and make sure he's ok. Say sorry if they want to.

Child tidies up mess they made.

Family goes out on trip as usual.

Canceling a family day out for a 3 year olds behavior is giving said 3 year old way too much power. Your child has learnt if they misbehave all the adults around will change their behavior. Child wouldn't have seen day out as a treat anyway. Your 'consequence' made no sense.

I also agree with others that your expectations are off. Even if your child is extremely bright, that has nothing to do with emotional regulation and control. Thats beyond your child for many years yet. Yes, he knows it was wrong. That doesn't mean he's able to stop himself in the moment.

What you've actually taught your child is- I can get the adults to cancel their plans for me if I misbehave. Awful lesson for a child.

I have a child exactly the same age and a nephew also the same age. My child would understand this was wrong and it would also understand the consequence. My nephew would not. My point is, you know your child and what they are capable of understanding. In this case there would also be consequences for my child who would totally know this was wrong. Or at least will do after the punishment.

I probably would have removed screen time or something else instead of cancelling the day completely, simply because the other family had made a trip specially. But its your child, your choice. It is good to see parents actually following through though - because that doesn’t always happen.

I think it was the right thing to do. He was given the opportunity to apologise, and didn’t so that does need to be followed up with a consequence. I can’t believe some posters thinking a child of that age can’t be blamed for their actions, he knew that throwing a mug of tea at his grandad was wrong, and refused to apologise. Poor little Johnny didn’t know what he was doing? Give me a break. That behaviour needs nipping in the bud.

I think you might be confusing gentle parenting with permissive parenting. Gentle parenting is no more or less than applying age appropriate behaviour correction techniques based on cognitive brain development. I'd also argue that anecdotally, I've seen just as many failed products of overly punitive parenting as permissive parenting - though they present in different ways.

There’s a massive difference between saying sorry, and really meaning it. I know it’s not the same situation at all, but we’ve seen plenty of adults who think that “sorry” can get them out of anything. Remember the bankers who crashed the world economy in 2008, and the only consequence they faced was having to say “sorry”? They still kept their millions, while everyone else suffered.

And Boris Johnson. He believed that you can just say “sorry” and all is forgiven. “I’m sorry that behaviour in Downing Street wasn’t what it should have been.” He has since as good as said (when he realised that “sorry” wouldn’t help him) that he regrets apologising, and that he didn’t really mean it.

I know it’s hardly the same comparison as making a child say “sorry”, but it illustrates the meaninglessness of the stock word “sorry”.

This child seemingly is told no, he is given consequences and yet it is having no impact on improving his behaviour from what the op has said. If a child isn't learning from consequences then an alternative approach may be necessary (since surely seeing an improvement as a result of consequences is why they're applied as a behaviour management technique). Even if that's just both parents getting on the same page, meeting in the middle and agreeing on how to handle situations like this so that nobody need be undermined.

it was cold tea

I think it was absolutely right to cancel the day out.

Child is old enough to know what they did was wrong. Anecdotally I've seen many kids of "gentle parenting" turn out to be absolute thugs then the parents hand-wring over how that happened.

A quiet word for deliberately hurting someone?! The child is old enough to know better.

I am a foundation stage teacher and every year we observe that children's behaviour is getting worse. Children aren't told 'no'. They aren't given consequences. I understand this too as a parent. I have let my kids get away with far too much and at times this reflects in their behaviour. Well done OP for making a difficult decision. At nearly 4 your child absolutely needs to know consequences. At school kids know that it's wrong to throw. Yes your child has poor impulse control but they still need to be taught right from wrong.

A toddler can’t possibly understand any of this, cancelling the day was a total overreaction.

The incident simply required a quiet word with the toddler about the dangers of hot drinks etc and that would be the end of it in our house. Later a picture would be drawn for the grandparent, and an apology offered, once things had calmed down.

you should pre-empt this attention seeking behaviour.
move cups out of reach, anything that can be a "weapon"
i remember my dc completely behaving badly in company of older relatives.
keep an eye at all times,
keep him occupied

Op, you've said that this is a pattern of behaviour that you're clearly concerned about in your son. So it seems that the very punitive/ consequences driven approach may not actually be working to correct the behaviour. If this is the case, perhaps this approach might need a rethink?

Some children respond better to being removed from the immediate situation (eyes watching and judging is detrimental both to the child and the parents in this situation) and allowed to calm down before calmly but firmly talking about the behaviour/ implementing a consequence/ agreeing to apologise for their behaviour.

My dd never apologises in the immediate aftermath of an incident, she just escalates or becomes mute. Once she reflects, she invariably understands, processes and makes things right. She's 8, much older. At 3.5 she wouldn't have connected a cancelled day out to the behaviour. In your situation, my dh is you and I am the other parent.

The most important thing to do is agree together on how you'll handle these situations in future because you're likely undermining one another. What I'm saying is that you can likely reach an agreement on something that is somewhere in the middle. Fwiw, I do think your reaction was over the top, and likely fuelled by embarrassment about your son's behaviour - i.e you want to be seen to be doing something to actively address it. And I understand that reaction (I've been there). He does clearly need to learn rules and boundaries, but it doesn't sound like your approach is currently working.

Was it Parent A's family or Parent B's? If B's I can understand B being a little upset at having to cancel the family day out, which they and others were looking forward to, because of child's behaviour. Especially as a country house is not a huge treat for a child. That said, Grandad may have been relieved