Surrogacy in Mexico

You do. And it's grim. And I think it sets a really awful example to young women that the most important thing is to keep your figure... not even having babies is worth loosing that.
It's selfish and ugly and should be illegal.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/06/us-woman-61-says-being-surrogate-was-gift-for-her-son-and-his-husband

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4062180/Heroic-grandmother-67-world-s-oldest-surrogate-mother-carrying-daughter-s-child.html

They are good comparisons in that the commodification of human parts is wrong.

Being coerced into donating a kidney and being coerced into a surrogacy are not worlds apart.

And as soon as you can buy babies, you'll have baby farms (kind of do already)

Yes, a kidney is just an organ, and isn't as morally reprehensible requesting one as it is a baby.

Poor, vulnerable trapped women are the ones being exploited.

I put it to you, if this was YOUR daughter in a bit of a scrape, owing money, finding it hard to feed her kids... would you support her with going through a surrogacy to give that baby to a couple within hours if birth, then the money transferred and hands washed?

Buying babies is abhorrent.

It’s misplaced to worry about your status as a good ally to LGBTQ+ you need to think about being an ally to human infants and not condoning anything that causes them suffering or contributes to human trafficking. The rights of the women and children are more important in this situation than the wants of certain groups in society.

Aside from the increased risk to the mother, the removal of biological connection to surrogate is also interesting because the idea that this will lessen the bond only applies to the surrogate (ie the hope that she’s less likely to want to keep the baby). The baby itself has no idea that it’s not biologically connected to its mother and therefore will have the same strength of bond to the woman who carried and birthed them, regardless of being conceived via donor egg.

Again, absolutely zero consideration for the actual baby, but the baby can’t talk so no one seems to care.

Also of relevance is all the people in Ireland (and the diaspora) who were victims of forced adoption and who are now, in their forties, fifties, sixties and seventies, still looking for their birth mothers. My great aunt's funeral, a woman came in and it turned out she was her first child, had been searching for her for decades, and saw the death announcement on RIP.ie and that was the first time she ever connected with her. At her funeral. It turned out my great aunt had been in a Magdalene Laundry in her teens and she never spoke about it. That sort of loss never goes away.
These people are people knowingly setting up another mass trauma like that.

I imagine people have many different views on what they dislike about it. I can also see why someone who is desperate for a child would want to explore every avenue. But, personally, I don't think it should be allowed because you shouldn't be able to buy a human being. If these women didn't desperately need the money, and there were more legitimate ways to earn it, do you think they would be selling their body, risking their life and damaging their future physical health by being a surrogate? If they just 'loved' being pregnant, or wanted to spread joy or one of the other dubious quotes some people spout, they'd do it for free and there would be studies confirming that being physically removed from your birth mother and denied all contact does not harm a baby and later that adult.

I also think the concept of using another person as a human incubator is vile in and of itself.

Would add to this that there’s a disconnect where a woman uses donor eggs to carry a child for herself - the law is clear that she is the mother because to the baby she IS, the baby is born already knowing her as it’s mother and bonded to her, and the egg donor has no claim to the child.

The only difference is that when someone is paying enough, the (carrying) mother/child bond can be disregarded, and someone who is neither the biological mother nor carrier can claim the baby.

Quite shocking really.

Must have been a donor egg and the husband's sperm?

I think if anyone's in any doubt about the motivations of the rich people buying these babies from impoverished women, just look at where they're buying them from. The medical systems are abysmal in those countries. Those rich people wouldn't set foot in those places for medical care for themselves. If the rich people valued the babies or mothers they wouldn't let them risk their safety in places with shit medical care. Given that those seem to be the only places where you can buy a baby these days, they'd just campaign for surrogacy to be banned.
The fact that they don't shows it's not about the baby. They don't care about the babies at all. It's alllllll about the parents and their status, and buying a baby has become the ultimate status symbol. They don't care if it has lifelong medical issues from that infection it picked up at birth in a 2nd world country, that's just more Instagram fodder isn't it?

Your sister has the ability to say "no, I don't wish to risk your life or life long health even though I really wish I could have a baby. Its not for me to risk other people's health".

So yes, it does still apply.

If there is equal love and respect then an offer is followed by the sibling declining the offer. Otherwise there is an imbalance in power dynamics in the relationship.

There isn't an alternative scenario here.

No fucking way?! How the hell did we get here?

You never see wealthy women choosing commercial surrogacy as a career option do you 🤔

Like the man who guilted his 66-year-old mother into going through IVF to give himself and his husband a child, as he reasoned that it was so the baby would have his familial DNA.

The selfishness is stunning.

Thought experiment: how do you feel about puppy farming? Poor doggies being exploited, being kept in terrible conditions with pregnancy after pregnancy, making money for a breeder supplying an endless stream of cute ‘cockapoos’ for wealthy middle-class people whose lives won’t be complete until they’ve a bundle of joy skipping around their garden.

I mean, if they puppies aren’t perfect, they’ll just be disposed of. And if they’re not vaccinated and health checked, well, buyer beware. And if the mum has pregnancy complications, ah well. Plenty more when that came from. And if the dog is going to a completely unsuitable environment, that’s not on the breeder, they’re just there to supply the market.

If you’re not good with this, then substitute ‘agency’, ‘poorer woman likely from the global majority’, ‘baby’, and for unsuitable environment read ‘ripped away from birth mother, family and culture’ and then tell me surrogacy isn’t a vile commercial practice of end-stage capitalism that is profoundly anti-women and children.

Why can't they just buy a couple of kids from an orphanage instead?

Personally I think altruistic surrogacy is worse in many respects because it knowingly asks someone who loves you very much, to put their life and health on the line.

That's not ok. A good sibling wouldn't let a sibling do it for love, precisely because they love them.

It shows up that there is an imbalance of power in the relationship and there is an unhealthy dynamic of guilt and duty going on.

Exactly.

My point is that they are a) not good comparisons b) there's still problems with organ donation so we shouldn't pretend there isn't c) the problems are always related to financial payments and coercion d) healthcare systems with the strictest regulations always are best e) anyone going abroad for such care/treatment is inevitably doing so to knowingly get around these ethical safeguards

Nobody has the right to a baby.

In my opinion, surrogacy is exploitative and no better than child trafficking.

The exploitation of women, usually of a lower social class than the buyers, is vile and dehumanising. I don't give a shiny shite about the buyer's sexuality, religion or skin colour, nobody should be able to buy another human being.

An international surrogacy ban is long overdue. If you're that desperate for a child, apply for adoption. There are so many unwanted children in the world in desperate need of a loving home. Give one of them a chance instead of indulging your own selfish, narcissistic whims.