To resent the U-turn on winter fuel allowance?

I mean we paid off the loan that was used to "compensate" the slave owners. I think that's the third time I've said it. It wasn't our debt but we paid it and didn't moan about it.

If you look at most of the complaints about the WFA allowance though, nearly all of them are focussed on the fact that rich people get it that don't need it.

If you means test it to make sure only the needy get it, you remove most of the objections to it with a single stroke.

Recover it through tax the way child benefit is. It really is that simple.

Why would the government not do this ?

It hasn’t changed my view. If WFA is restored to me - highly unlikely but nothing’s impossible - it will be donated to the foodbank once more. I don’t think the attitude we see on MN and other social media is representative of wider society.

I think most people understand that you do the best you can with the cards you’re dealt. We were brought up to work hard, pay your taxes, pay your mortgage and contribute to a pension. A huge swathe of us have done that and are now being castigated on the basis of our date of birth and the decisions of various governments throughout our lifetimes, regardless of whether we agreed with them or not.

All the pensioners I know are poor…

I agree OP. But remember that some of that so called generation will tell you they have worked all their lives. They hijack the notion that they are frail and have needs, some are and do. BUT in reality many are living in houses too big for them, driving cars too powerful to handle and going on holidays so expensive that the next generations can only ever hear about. You'll see them sat in coffee shops, often with their pampered pooches by their side, looking well-dressed and spending time discussing how to spend their fat pensions. Alot are selfish with not a care about what impact their attitude has on the next generations. We, and our children, and theirs, will pay for their luxurious lifestyles and their sense of entitlement.

There’s some confusion about war debt here. The war debt after WW2 was massive and was funded by specific war bonds with a very long term which were finally paid off in 2015 by George Osborne. These were held by individual investors and pension funds. There was also a massive loans from the US paid off in installments ending in 2006. The UK wasn’t debt free when these were paid off so you could say they were was paid off with more debt. There will always be national debt and no generation can claim to have ‘paid off’ the debt.

Having said that I do think boomers lived through some very tough times post war. If they now own their own homes and have good pensions they had a more precarious start in life than later generations.

I see as much spite from older people as younger ones.

Yes, absolutely. Funded from other debt.

In 2015, the UK government rationalised its gilt portfolio, including paying off all undated gilts, which included the remaining slavery debt.

It was a technical move to restructure the debt. Until that point the remaining slavery debt was effectively an interest-only loan

Also the total amount of undated gilts redeemed in 2015 was £218m (not just the slavery debt), so this wasn't some massive share of government debt.

It has never been fully paid off over the past 50 years (and more). There's always been debt. Presumably you mean the yearly deficit (i.e. difference between Govt income and expenses) which has been in surplus only 5 years out of the last 50!

I think what this thread has achieved is that pensioners who were sympathetic to ending universal WFA or means testing it now feel that if younger generations are so spiteful maybe we should take what we can, no more charity donations, no more volunteering. Some of you might regret it.

Yes, apologies. That was a reply to @Blossomtoes.

Yes it's fact that the slave debt was paid off until recently. No argument from me on that.

We paid it off.

You're addressing that to me quoting someone else. What I said was I paid taxes all my working life and for most of that time one of the things that was being paid back was the loans to pay off slaves owners. That is a fact.

Ultimately the welfare budget (including pensions) cannot be afforded going forward. There is no way that the costs can continue whichever government is in power. Really tough decisions will be made regardless of 'who contributes' or 'who deserves' the money. I can see big changes to the NHS, education etc..regardless of who is in power.

I know a few pensioners, I find that the ones who downsized into small easy to keep flats/ bungalows that they own outright seem to be fine? I was chatting to someone yesterday she gets about 1200 a month from pensions and saves a few hundred a month of that to her ISA. She lives pretty frugally but warm and cosy , bills paid, food in doesn’t go out much but that’s because a bit unsteady, in her 80s and people come to her. It’s pensioners in rented or no larger homes requiring more maintenance which struggle generally.

No one is saying your generation made no contribution. What the facts show is that your generation's contributions were nowhere near enough for what your generation cost.

I'm middle-aged, and my tax bill first reached six figures in my twenties. I make no complaint about how much I personally contribute. I can't see how your personal tax situation changes the debate either. I'm not making any claim about you.

I'm considering the generations below me, and seeing how much worse the fiscal deal has become for them. (And not just tax: property costs are a massive intergenerational transfer too. I benefit from it but I still recognise the issue).

I've not called anyone a parasite either. I've brought facts and principles, and explicitly said I'm not assigning blame to a generation for being large and voting.

If you think my claim is that the Baby Boom generation never made any contribution then no wonder you disagree (but also, you can't have read very carefully). I'm discussing being a net beneficary or a net contributor, as a cohort as a whole. If you've got data to show I'm wrong on that then please share it.

We don’t want praise, we want you to stop implying we’re parasites who have never made any contribution. My first tax payment was in 1971 (33%+9% NI) I expect the last one will be after I’m dead. That looks like a serious contribution to me. Out of interest, how many tax paying years have you contributed?

Also: what’s the principle here?

Go to a restaurant, order three courses and the wine.

When the bill comes ignore your costs, complain that you’ve paid for your neighbours starters and their salad and you’ve “no sympathy” with your fellow diners who are now going to have to cover your much larger bill.

My parents or in-laws don't need it. To be fair they didn't kick off over it. My in-laws do regularly treat us to meals out and recently gave us 5k.

My parents have ten holidays a year, eat out twice a week and drive a flash car. Whilst they don't help us financially, they spend more than most people I know. They are certainly not saving it, so they are keeping money circulating.

DH and I both work and still money is always tight.

No. Since about 1980 national debt has stopped falling and then rose very sharply.

That’s like wanting praise for paying off the very tail end of the mortgage, when what you’ve done is paid it off with a credit card and left the bill for that unpaid.

@TheignT The data just doesn’t back you up. In any generation some people will be big net contributors. You may be one of those.

As a cohort though, every conventional study and analysis, shows this generation is a big net beneficiary. I’m glad you aren’t complaining.

As for paying off war debt: it was paid off by borrowing more. Debt stopped falling in about 1980 and has risen since.

As for paying previous generations’ pensions. Yes. And as each generation has lived longer and longer, the pension bill for each successive generation has grown. The pension bill for the Baby Boomer generation is the highest there has ever been. The costs are being borne by current taxation and by borrowing.

We also spent most of our working lives paying off the loans to compensate the slave owners. Definitely a loan taken out well before we were born.

Not in the slightest. There’s no point in attempting to elicit sympathy for intergenerational unfairness from someone whose taxes have paid for two wars that ended before they were born, two generations of pensions, three generations of education and benefits they’ve never claimed. All without complaint.

The principle you are appealing to is that the generation that benefits should be the one to fund.

You are a convert to the cause of intergenerational fairness. Welcome!