Loud Child in Church

Well, agreed on that, and I’ve been contentedly atheist for decades, but on the other hand, I’ve never attended a Catholic service of any kind in any country (funeral, wedding, baptism, ordinary mass) where children being noisy has been considered a problem to the extent I often see on here in relation to other denominations. Having said that, I’ve never come across a C of E service that advertises itself as ‘child-friendly’ or ‘family’, but which in fact means ‘babies are looked after elsewhere in a crèche and older children are also taken out of the church to be given separate activities’, apparently so that adults can essentially have a child-free service.

The C of E church in our old village had a family service I attended a couple of times when we’d just moved in, and while there was a Sunday school in the adjacent hall, it was only for part of the service — the rest of the time, the church was filled with of children being mildly noisy, Thete was a space at the back with toys, and there were action songs etc. People without children, or who wanted peace, attended a quieter earlier service.

We moved churches for this very reason. My teenage child has sensory problems and just couldn’t cope with the noise. We attend a lovely quiet church now.
I have sympathy for the dad, he’s obviously completely overwhelmed. She won’t be two for long and will grow out of it.

Agree with this.
In church everyone’s needs matter and ‘family’ does not only mean children. Many come into church needing a bit of space and reflection. That doesn’t mean silence. But clear disruption and lack of respect for proceedings can ruin it for them. Why does Abby’s ‘needs’ trump theirs.
I have no objection to children in church and don’t mind a bit of low level noise. But not this sort of thing.

The congregation is there for collective worship; it's not a West End show or a cinema. Children are equal members of the church family, not a nuisance to be kept quiet or out of sight.

So, a single parent of 4 young children comes to a child friendly service and the youngest one is loud and demanding? Maybe you and your fellow Christians need to be prepared to support Ben during what must be a very difficult phase of his life, take the onus off Jane and share responsibility for a child who is quite needy since her mother is not on the scene, rather than complaining on MN about her disruptive behaviour. Wouldn't that be the 'Christian' thing to do?

Show me where Jesus said that?

There is big difference between child tolerant and a child being allows to be disruptive.

It almost sounds like the poor guy is overwhelmed with 4 kids and trying to get 4 of them out the door on a Sunday morning is probably no mean feat.
Trying to remember snacks and stuff is probably a step too far for him .

There is also a thing he expects the LO to sit and listen which is just never going to happen. Not everyone agrees with using snack to releave boredom. But maybe a book or colouring stuff wouldn't go a miss.

I do wonder what they did before this wife passed away.

If you're worried about homophobic and misogynistic religious views, Christians are not the top religion to go after

We go to a large church with a small congregation mainly elderly. I do take snacks and books etc for my 2 year old. One week he just wouldn’t sit still (there is no youth group or Sunday school etc) and all he wanted to do was run round the church. I tried to stop him but he’s at an age ! The vicar announced - if the child wants to run, let him, you just sit down mum. So I did. Once it wasn’t a game, he came back for his snacks. I’m always embarrassed at his antics (with a veteran dad, his shouting in the minute silence was another epic fail) - however the members of the congregation have always been reassuring. A - we’ve been there / don’t worry about it vibe.

I do understand it is a different situation if he isn’t bringing toys or snacks etc. but perhaps that is something the church could look at? The first time I took my son to church he was given some crayons and colouring sheets by the church wardens? Something constructive rather than critical maybe? Something not aimed at one person? If you already have youth groups putting together some sort of welcome to church pack might be easy?

Have you watched ‘Conclave’?!
Apparently, if they say they are a man, they can! 😂

“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” Jesus didn't say anything about them being quiet.

Look to your Christian values for guidance.

I think what one person perceives as “well” is very different from another and I don’t think an atheist upbringing is inherently superior to a religious one. You seem very prescriptive and to believe your opinion trumps others in a way that I personally would not want to see become the norm.

I don't get it either Jane who seems to engage with her is also her godmother.

So it's not like she is just some random she too is probably grieving the Mum and is a bit shell shocked at what has happened.

Two, no mum, is potentially in nursery 5 days a week, and wants to cling to Dad when she can.

Honestly the Op needs to stay out of it. If she opens her mouth then it's easily both Ben and Jane who'll feel unwelcome in the church and two families who will leave.
Churches need the next generation or theyll be no church.

It has many faults as all religions do however my religious upbringing shaped me. I am very tolerant and accepting person. People bashing others who are religious are as bad as what they are hating. It’s a very personal thing. Many people don’t personally agree with parents swearing in front of children, bringing them up vegan or leaving them in childcare full time from a few months old however it’s none of anyone’s business and it’s their choice, the same as it’s other parents choices to take their children to church!

This is what I'm confused about. If he is still sitting with Abby, how is she being palmed off on other people? Surely he's just sitting next to people he knows Abby knows or is comfortable around rather than sitting next to strangers? And these people voluntarily interact with Abby? How is that his fault? Yes he should tell her to be quiet or take her out if she's causing too much fuss, but I don't see how he's palming his daughter off on other women

Poor Ben it sounds like he's had a very tough time. 2 is so young to be without your mum I'm not surprised the little one is so attached. I wonder if he has appropriate support. I have a brother in a similar situation and it's damn hard!

People seem to think ‘child friendly’ is the same as ‘child indulgent’.

YANBU OP. Other people are there too and one child shouldn’t dominate half of the church.

In your opnion but again that,s not what this thread is about .

I think parents have a duty to bring kids up to treat people as equals, regardless of sex, race, sexuality etc. I'm not aware that any of the major religions role model that behaviour, and hence they are inappropriate for children.

I think parents have a duty to bring kids up to be tolerant of others beliefs even if they don't align with their own
But this is what this thread is about.

Yes, I'd judge parents poorly if they pass on harmful or offensive cultures, behaviours etc. Mysogynistic and homophobic religious beliefs would be just one of them.

Do you not think parents have a duty to bring up children well?

Can't the church buy a few small toys, paper and pens and some rice cakes/raisins for the toddlers? Put them to the side of the service and tell parents to sit with their kids? Or have a dedicated person to mind the toddlers who is able to manage them? Maybe put on an early service for parents with kids so it's not disrupting everyone else?

Catholics are so famously tolerant that women are banned from being the top manager in their organisation.

If child friendly there is usually playful children and the church absolutely welcomes this, where parents are not on edge etc.

However for this Mum she may need a few minutes to herself and I am sure welcomes this rare and brief opportunity.

Usually churches have puzzles, colouring books, pens etc for children to use in the church during services. You could ask this to the church community or suggest to the Dad they can be found over there (show him, or even get it out ready), to give this mum some time to reflect. Usually a member of the church community will get it ready if you ask them if you’re not sure.