on the tube recently people were giving up seats for a mother and a grandfather who in turn let the children sit

In the example of healthy 11yo and healthy 41yo, are you actually suggesting that the 11yo should get up for the 41yo? Why on earth would the 41 year old take priority, that's ridiculous!?

At 7 DS will already stand without prompting to give a seat to elderly or disabled, or twice at least to toddlers; he's polite, charming and unselfish. I won't be teaching him to stand up for adults who are perfectly able to stand though, there is a line because he needs to also learn that he has rights and value too.

How can you possibly think a single incident in a city of millions constitutes a change in attitudes. Some adults will want their kids/kids in their care sitting on a busy train. I think society will survive.

I think people just call BS on the notion that an 11 year old is lesser than a perfectly able bodied 41 year old. And rightly so. If the 11 year old is sitting first there’s no logical reason they should stand for another able person, other than entitlement from the adult.

I would never dream of expecting someone’s child to stand up for me. It’s such a weird attitude.

We will have to agree to differ .
I should have written “What a shame good manners aren’t taught by a lot of parents anymore.”

If that’s the case it is a remarkable coincidence that the only times that anyone ever says to me “would you like a seat?” Is when I am travelling with my DC. Maybe they think parenting is so draining that I need to sit down? Or maybe they mean “please use this seat for uour family in any configuration you feel most appropriate for your needs” and “would you like a seat?” is simply a commonly understood shorthand, who can say?

“would you like a seat” surely implies you. Whereas “would he/she” or “would either of you like” implies that the giver doesn’t care who takes it 🤷🏻‍♀️.

I would also let my children sit down because I would rather they be comfortable and safe, as a parent I would never prioritise my comfort over theirs so yes I'd stand and they'd be sitting, I don't understand what the issue is with that

In my experience we’ve routinely been offered seats when travelling in London over the last 10 years until a a couple of years ago when children were 6 and 8 - we still occasionally get offers now they are 8 and 10 though I will generally now decline the offer whereas I would previously have accepted. If a seat becomes free I sometimes find people standing will offer it up to the children rather than sit themselves and I am still fine with them accepting those offers.

Even at 8 and 10 on a crowded tube they are still at risk of being jostled and shoved, swept up in a surge of people getting off at the same time, falling into someone’s lap etc.

But aren't we talking about adults who are standing too, so whose lap would they sit on, when you say small children sat on laps? A small child can't sit on your lap if no one has given up a seat for you. Ok, in the original op the mum or grandad could sit down in the offered seat and the child sit on their lap, but in most cases (and definitely if I had a baby bump but feeling healthy) I'd prefer to stand then have my child on my lap for a long time, so I'd let them have the seat. It's not taking up any more seats than if I sat and the child sat on my lap, so what difference does it make to anyone else.

I'd give my seat to a child. I'd rather risk falling or bumping into someone myself than risk a child doing it.

Oh indeed my children would generally much prefer to stand up and wobble about and swing off poles. They would also prefer not to swear seatbelts, play with matches and eat ice cream for every meal. As an adult I recognise that what they want and what is best for them aren’t necessarily the same thing.

And I’ve read the T&Cs on my children’s free travel cards and nowhere does it say “this ticket is issued for standing only”

Yes this has changed. Even 20 years ago toddlers and small children sat on their parents' lap, older kids stood. It wouldn't cross my mind to offer my seat to a child and when mine were small I wouldn't have expected anyone to give up theirs.

I’d certainly expect my DC to stand for anyone who was clearly in need of a set (elderly, pregnant, carrying a younger child etc). But I wouldn’t expect them to stand for a fit 40 year old. Obviously there’s a hierarchy of need here?

This is ridiculous. Of course most parents teach their kids good manners. It's just the idea of what that constitutes has clearly changed in the last 50 years or so!

See I don't actually think that was aggressive. And I dont think that children are "lesser" so frankly I don't see why they should offer you their seat just because you are an adult?
My kids (who are 10 now so perfectly able to stand) would offer their seat to someone who needed it. Like someone with say, a stick, or a very elderly person or an obviously pregnant woman or even (shock horror!) a very small child. I would absolutely NOT expect or indeed encourage them to stand up for someone with no obvious particular need just because they're an adult. Why should they? What exactly is that teaching them? That they are worth less? They're not. They have empathy and would offer - just as an adult would - to someone who obviously needed it.

Yes.
What a shame good manners aren’t taught by parents anymore ☹️

When I’m travelling with my DC it’s quite common for people to asked me “would you like a seat?”, I have never assumed they are offering me a seat and not the DC. How do you determine the difference?

Problem is that we've got someone just a few posts above you criticising a child of "5 or 6" sitting. I recall people commenting on DS and "aren't you in school?" when he was only 3. So, quite apart from the fact that a 6 year old is still young enough to not necessarily be safe, the child being glared at by some irate passenger might be only 3 or 4. Great to make these confident statements about what "robust upper primary children" can do, but some people are then applying that to little tiny ones.

In my view we really do need to save the criticism for those in their teens, 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s who should be standing for someone who needs it, not quibbling over whether a "looks 6" kid will be safe trying to hang onto a bar on a bumpy bus journey or not.

And if you don't actually need it, you just want it for "respect" th n you can do one!

Blimey - aggressive or what?

What's wrong with respect and consideration for others? Children are by their nature (not their fault) often self-centred and don't or can't look beyond themselves. Adults need to teach them to do that, and to understand that some older or disabled people (or pregnant women) are not as able to stand as an 8-year-old fizzing with youthful energy. What the heck is wrong with this I cannot fathom.

Yes - they do need to be taught this. I blame the adults and not the children if they haven't been. But as I said upthread, children actually enjoy feeling they've helped someone - my son thought it was a very grown-up thing to do and it increased his self-esteem no end.

So don't knock it!

If they're little or a bit frail they sit on their parent's knee.

In which case the seat’s still taken. I stood to allow my child to sit down - just like the adults in OP’s scenario. It’s no different. 🤷‍♀️

No - it's not as horrific as that.

If they're little or a bit frail they sit on their parent's knee. If they're robust upper-primary school children they stand, holding on to one of the vertical poles like the rest of us have to. I don't see how that would be beyone them.

Most children are not made of Dresden china - and I'm not talking about children with disabilities or injuries.

Unless it’s a baby or toddler where they cannot actually stand or will fall over, then no, I’m not giving my seat up for a child.

OP’s not worked up about it, just noticing something that’s different. I think it’s becoming everyday behaviour now.

Decades ago, when I was a child but old enough to stand safely either holding on to mum or alone, kids routinely gave up their seat to older people because that’s just what you did. (Little children were expected to sit on laps.) Also to people who were disabled or pregnant or carrying a baby. No big deal. They needed a seat more than a healthy child with plenty of energy did.

I was surprised when people started giving up seats to children rather than people who visibly needed a seat. But like OP, I’m not getting worked up about it.

But if the adult didn’t want the seat they should’ve declined it. Not taken it from someone who did want it, and then give it to someone that they preferred.

The person sitting didn’t offer their seat to a child, they offered it to an elderly gentleman, if the elderly man didn’t want to make use of it he shouldn’t have taken it.

I think the seniors should get first seating along with people who use mobility aids.

And able bodied, get the fuck out of the wheelchair spots when someone in a chair needs it. It's not a parking spot for your strollers either.