To ground DD for a week

I know for me the self loathing was punishment in itself. I also know I was often told to apologise but couldn’t understand apologising for being me and feeling. Most of my feelings now are very muted and I wonder if that’s from years of oppressing them so I didn’t get told off.

@schoolstruggle I think this is something that people often feel - I feel this very strongly myself, and I felt that way as a child too. It's a factor in anxiety and depression. And I also know that's not right (though I still find it very hard to act on that knowledge!) Self loathing internalises the punishment in a way that helps nobody.

It can actually be less terrible for a child who is prone to self-loathing to be given a finite external punishment and to apologise; and then the badness is "spent" and you are forgiven and you can all put it aside and move on. So you don't have to punish yourself.

The apology is needed as well as the external punishment because an apology is not about "being you" or your feelings at all, it's really about your actions and their effect on the other person and on the other person's feelings. We all hurt other people sometimes, accidentally or deliberately. Some of us find it very difficult to apologise or to feel forgiven.

Did your parents "tell you off" without acknowkedging your feelings and without giving you a sense of being forgiven afterwards? Some parents don't put that across very well, and some children don't pick forgiveness up easily and need extra reassurance and clarity about it. (Not saying I always succeeded with that as a parent!) It's important not to make a child promise never to do it again, especially not an autistic child. Because they may not be able to keep the promise, or they may not feel able to promise honestly because they might lose control again, and that's a real mindfuck. All you're trying to get across is an understanding that they shouldn't have done it and an intention to find a better way.

My DC finds it just as hard to apologise as I do. I treasure the apologies that he has managed to make. We apologise to people for the same kind of reason we say "thank you" for gifts we don't want at all. We recognise and respect their feelings. They had a generous impulse towards us so we say thank you for the gift even though we didn't want the hideous item. Our actions hurt and frightened someone so we apologise for the unacceptable thing we did. Even if we had strong reasons to do it.

(edited for annoying typo)

As a mum with a SEND child this comment really caught my attention. YOU and her father are her safe zone and therfore yes she is more likely to attack you, it shouldn't happen but it does. Her friends aren't her safe zone. YOU ARE!

SEND kids minds work differently and I do think you've gone overboard. Stopping friends coming over OR removing devices which ever one will have the most impact. She's just come back from a school trip where's been away from her comfort zone. Of course she's going to be hyper and she just needed to explode. I'd try and sit down with her, get her to apologise and say why it can't happen again.

Parenting send is hard and it has to be done differently! Removing devices, stopping friends and grounding is too much.

I know I’m late to this discussion but wanted to share my own experiences as an autistic adult and parent to an autistic child.

For both myself and my daughter if we’d come home from an overstimulating event we’d need time away from everyone. Just time alone either playing solo games (solitaire for me on the old 90s computers!) or reading or watching something comforting alone away from everyone. Did your daughter want you there while she unwound?

The other thing is the violence in a meltdown. It’s this massive pent up of emotions that feels stuck and then explode in frustration and anger. I’ve never lashed out and my daughter hasn’t lashed out since about 8 yo but we both self harm with it. There could be alternative outlets for that frustrating eruption. Maybe hitting a pillow or get her an actual punch bag or throw bean bags at a wall?

This age is also soooo difficult with hormones. They are all over the place and it definitely makes the emotions harder to regulate. I was still having (private) meltdowns in my early 20s and struggled so much with PMS.

I’m not going to tell you if you should or shouldn’t punish/ground your child but remember these big emotions during meltdowns are hard to control. I know for me the self loathing was punishment in itself. I also know I was often told to apologise but couldn’t understand apologising for being me and feeling. Most of my feelings now are very muted and I wonder if that’s from years of oppressing them so I didn’t get told off.

Well it's none of your mil's business is it? How does she even know? I would not be telling her anything in future. You know your child best and if she's being a little madam, even if she is on the spectrum then fair is fair. And yes (before anyone piles on) I have been in a very similar position myself with DD. We had her assessed. Not on the spectrum but suspected be by teachers etc.

I would suggest getting her assessed ASAP if you can. I'm really clear with my Sen son though, yes you find emotional regulation harder - we will help you, we will provide space for you to regulate, we will provide tools to help, it's a skill we will help you learn, there are cushions you can punch. However, he needs to spot his triggers, understand when he's heading for meltdown and get himself to a space he can either regulate or meltdown then regulate.
At 13 she can probably spot things making her feel wobbly, she can know what to do when she feels this way. It's literally not viable to send her out into the world if she could exhibit this level of meltdown without seeing it coming or knowing what to do when it's coming. So I'd suggest a professional and an assessment to see where she's at, because if it's as you see it (that she might be nd but she can manage things to the extent she's chosen to use you as a punchbag) then you're right that there should be a consequence. If she's not in that place ND wise, and she literally has no control over it, then there's a much bigger issue going on.

I have used "Explosive Child" myself, but this is one of its limitations and I had to use other strategiesas well ("Incredible Years" was very good for a younger DC)

Yes, threats and punishments "on the spot" escalate tension but boundaries and consequences which a child knows about in advance can be very effective over time. A child of 13 should know that there will always be consequences for physical aggression. Home needs to be a safe place for everyone and that includes the OP. OK, it's very difficult to create fair and effective consequences when you don't actually know what your child is capable of because their abilities and disabilities haven't yet been assessed but that degree of aggression needs some consequences. And grounding etc isn't unreasonable.

really recommend that you read Dr Ross Greene ‘The explosive Child’. If your child is autistic, the punishments you have given could likely make things worse. Listening to people who have no knowledge of autism or ND talking about discipline and what works for their neurotypical child is not going to get help you create a happier home. If your child could do better, they would. Push for diagnostic testing and learn how to keep them, and you, safe. It’s not easy, but what bit of parenting ever was? You can’t punish a child for what they do when they have no choice and control. Check out the definitions of a meltdown, imagine if you had no control over your actions, you feel horrible for losing control, and then the people that love you the most punish you for it. Solidarity, but you need to educate yourself for your sake, and your child. Children attack the person that they know they are safe with, they can unmask in front of. This isn’t acceptable, violence isn’t acceptable but it is the sign of a child in crisis. Diagnosis isn’t a fix all but it’s a real start to understanding behaviour and removing blame.

You suspect she is on the spectrum. If you have to do all this she is definitely on the spectrum and I feel you may need outside help as she grows older.Hormones are difficult enough for 13 year old girls to deal with. I would visit the go for starters and see what help may be available. Grounding may be good for some teenagers, but I fear this outburst may be out of her control. I could be wrong you know her best

@pollymere so no.control over meltdowns and violence, but selective over who to attack? Noone else has been physically assaulted but mum?
Or will it be another ' ahh but you're a safe space!! How privileged are you to be the one who gets attacked 🥰'....

Actually... Neurodiversity is the range. There are some who use the term natural neurodiversity which includes a spectrum that includes both the neuro-typical and the neurodivergent. There is a train of thought that suggests that normal neurodiversity is a much wider range than originally first thought so those with ASD might actually just be part of the natural neurodiversity of neuro-typical. Neurodivergence is a term used to refer to those who fall outside the current recognized range of neuro-typical.

Grounding your DD won't achieve anything as it can be difficult for those with ASD to connect punishment with behaviours.

You need to support DD so she can learn to manage her behaviours better. What happens during a meltdown is totally out of the person's control so it's deeply unfair to punish it at all. Explaining that she can't see her friends because she hurt you is up to you but does need to be explained. But realise you are essentially saying, "This thing happened that you had no control over hurt me so I'm going to hurt you in return". It isn't acceptable to pull someone's hair but your DD would've have been in a blind state. It wasn't done vindictively.

Work on ways with her to prevent meltdowns happening at all, but also ways SHE can identify warning signs so they don't happen. Some adults with ASD still have meltdowns and shutdowns but many have learnt coping mechanisms to prevent most of them happening. Look at Social Stories or discuss why it's not okay to pull your hair, even if she's upset. This is time for conversation and support, not punishment.

Ok then.

Explain to the classroom why everybody is neurodivergent (not just neurodiverse), why people are able to acquire diagnoses for not meeting milestones on a typical trajectory if typical doesn't exist without conflating typical as being the same, and why you are qualified to speak on the matter.

How much control over her behaviour does she have when she's experiencing a meltdown?

Punishment, even for adults in th criminal courts is generally for behaviour we have some control over (yes, I know there are some strict liability offences).

Punishment, if she had some control over what she was doing needs to fit the crime and shouldn't take away friends or things she uses to help herself regulate her emotional state. If she isn't misusing a phone, return it to her.

Stuff that might help:

• Therapy for you to unpack what it's like for you to be on the recieving end of her violence. Possibly separately family therapy.
• Asking her to write an apology (even if she wasn't in control she still hurt you)
• Planning for you to be able to tag team with someone else next time you're spending a day helping her decompress - suspect you were tired too by the time the meltdown happened. And/or reworking the plan to help her decompress to include more time alone for her. Wear your hair in a style that's harder to grab (can't make it impossible, but make it harder)
• Getting her to work out what the immediate trigger was so you can avoid it next time.
• Possibly training from.social care in safe methods of restraint.

Nope you are.

Hello, I have / am in similar situations. If you have to prepare in advance to take the day off work, make sure she's got her favourite dinner , calm environment etc then she's definitely on the spectrum. it is like walking on egg shells and I understand that. With my son we have to think ahead about what might trigger him and be prepared which is exactly what you're doing. My only advice is to advise her ( beforehand when she's calm) that after the movie it's time for bed and get her to agree to that so when it comes to that time it's not a surprise. I find giving plenty warning about what's happening next avoids a major meltdown cause they've already agreed what's happening. if you spring it upon them anyone on the spectrum won't be able to cope with it hence the tantrum. in regards to the meltdown the physical violence yes of course not acceptable but remember Is a reaction of how they can deal with the situation because they can't cope as non ND people would. Hope this helps. I would defo get her checked though x

Mum of sen kids here. After your description of her leaving her room and attacking you then yes I agree with consequences of grounding.

You put calm measures in place. She was in her room even though she was overwhelmed she chose to leave the room and attack you. To me thats a red line I will not stand for being attacked especially when you had walked away.

I could have written this post 12 years ago. Except I was not as good as you @Starfire2000in recognising when my DD was going to need time and space to decompress.
You did everything you could but it still wasn’t enough. So maybe a different way of looking at it is ‘we knew this would happen’ .

Im not sure grounding is going to help. The only way to stop these outbursts is to help your daughter manage the big emotions and channel her energy in a different way. And that will take a long time, a lot of talking and a lot of work for you both. When she is calm have those conversations- it is completely unacceptable to hurt anyone and she is now old enough to realise that and take some responsibility for ensuring that doesn’t happen again. Read widely about autism in girls, by clinicians and women with autism themselves, learn about how they help themselves to cope.
Even without a diagnosis you can still employ techniques that help - this is more important than the label. Albeit the label might help you access external support quicker if it’s available in your area.

If she is not willing to work with you then I would be very sorry no more trips, camps, sleepovers as you are not prepared to be a punching bag when she gets back. It is unsustainable for both parents to take days off work and spend 2 hours hair stroking - she needs to be working towards managing this on her own. Obviously not all at once, you support and then start removing the scaffolding as she build confidence in being able to manage herself.

I’m sure you’ve heard before that she lashes out at you because you are her safe person. That doesn’t make being beaten up feel any better
(believe me I know) .As her trusted person you have a key role in helping her learn to deal with things. But you do not have to accept being hurt - and she needs to know that you understand , you will help her but you will not tolerate being treated like this by her. All part of a calm conversation that may need to be paused and continued later, it is all quite confronting for her.

I really feel for you and it brings back lots of memories for me, If it helps my DD is now 26, has an MSc, a good job and lives with her lovely boyfriend. There are still some situations she finds difficult but she does amazingly to cope and decompress afterwards.

Sorry long post. Good luck

I’m sorry your daughter hurt you. If she does turn out to be on the spectrum, you may eventually find that rewards and punishments don’t work in the same way as they do for neurotypical children. My ASD DS used to be very violent until we embraced non-violent resistance. Punishments would only escalate the situation and lead to him digging in further.

i think following to another place and pulling out the hair is where the line crosses into consequences

That. A meltdown where the parent gets to close or is in physical contact, can end up with the child lashing out without intending to hurt.
But in this case OP withdrew and her daughter went after her and deliberately went for her hair. That's entirely different and can't be ignored or excused.

Something has to happen that shows DD that this is an entirely different kind of violence and that it can't happen again.

I'm not sure that grounding for a week is the answer, but there's a case for shock and awe, and not having her friends round and confiscating her phone is absolutely proportionate.

This exactly, if the violence and physical assaults are due to uncontrollable meltdowns and lashing out, then of course it wouldn't be safe to have friends over?

Being on the spectrum doesn’t excuse any of this.

Grounding her for a week with no phone isn’t harsh, it’s pretty much all you can do.

Id take it a step further and only allow books and music. No tv. No internet unless it’s to research homework.

The reason I’d do that is because she was physically violent. If she getting overly stimulated by her surroundings then having a phone/ tv constantly pumping information her way while trying to interact respectfully in your home isn’t that deal while you’re trying to set expectations for behaviour.

The fact that she wouldn’t do this in front of her friends or at school tells me she can control her behaviour and knows perfectly well it’s unacceptable.

Hi, you mention she was fine until you said it's time for bed.
Just wondering if r was a sudden thing if "right, come on bedtime" or was she given a countdown, for example "right we will finish this film and then we will get ready for bed" or even a timeline "5 more minutes cuddling on the sofa whilst the film finishes and then it's bedtime" so it's not such a sudden shock.
I agree the hitting and hair pulling etc isn't acceptable but I do think some SEN children struggle to control when in meltdown. Some need a "now & then" routine, "now we are going to watch the film, and then it's going to be bedtime" so they can process the order of things happening.
Are school on board with the possible neurospicy'ness? If nothings been mentioned I'd definitely organise a meeting with the school senco for them to observe at school and/or mention to GP. The waiting list for referrals on NHS is very long at the moment so earlier you can get her on its the better (or go via right to choose)

She sounds like she reserves this treatment for you. No I wouldn't tolerate it. There should be consequences. I also agree that many autistic people are able to choose how they behave. She presumably doesn't attack her friends or teachers.

I suppose the danger if she doesn't learn to control her violence is that in the future her 'safe place' to let it all out will be her boyfriend/girlfriend and then it's domestic violence. I think you're obviously trying really hard op. You didn't deserve that and it sounds like a deliberate attack because she followed you.

If a woman wrote in and her husband had been away on a stag weekend (where there had been lots of overstimulating experience and a major diversion from routine) and then came home and had a huge meltdown and ripped her hair out I'm sure the comments would be very different!

I guess she has to learn how to direct those impulses/emotions in a way that means she won't physically hurt those close to her. I suppose that is your task as her parents. It sounds very hard. Wishing you all the best with it.

I gave several suggestions actually. And I’m not anti consequences. Just anti several consequences for an entire week.