To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

What do you consider discrimination?

Concrete examples, please.

Being a man or a woman comes down to biology.

It's not me "insisting on binaries". It's hundreds of millions of years of mammalian evolution.

The reality is not messy.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it is confusing.

Quite right, there is no “right” way to be a man or woman. So trans and nonbinary identities are absolutely legitimate, given that there isn’t a “right” way, and should not be discriminated against.

This part of the discussion is in response to somebody who doesn’t believe gender exists.

Gender exists, the existence of these stereotypes makes that clear.

No, you have this exactly backwards.

By suggesting a man is 'really a woman' because they align with stereotypically female traits, you are suggesting that alignment with societal stereotypes is more important than biological reality.

There is no 'right' way to be a man or a woman.

One binary remains reality. Human sex.

Exactly, they define stereotypes. Stereotypes which define binaries. The reality is much messier. By insisting on binaries you’re very
much reinforcing and perpetuating those stereotypes.

Stereotypes.

They describe stereotypes.

Harmful stereotypes.

The same harmful stereotypes that feminism was supposed to liberate women FROM.

But now people who identify as feminists think those stereotypes are what defines a woman.

People who believe they are non binary just believe they are different and special, not like the rest of us boring people. But they're not. They're just the same as everyone else. And just as binary as everyone else.

Cool. But none of this takes precedence over sex.

“I don't believe in the existence of any genders. They're all made up. But non binary is the silliest of the lot.”

Why do we have words like:

Feminine
Femininity
Masculine
Masculinity
Womanly
Ladylike
Manly
Gentlemanly

What do they describe ? It’s not sex. It’s behaviours and traits stereotypically associated with people of those sexes. AKA genders. Unlike sex which is immutable, genders can be fluid and nonbinary. All men and women are degrees of those words above, some more than others. Some have strong traits associated with their opposite sex, this makes it very abundantly clear that gender as a concept exists, and exists in a nonbinary way.

No one is being banned from shopping centres. Just as no one is being banned from toilets.

Gender identity can be as important/unimportant to you as you like. But it does not trump sex.

Gender identity is something that can be used as a Trojan horse/bait and switch tactic to get access to sex specific spaces that don't belong to you.

There was a VERY obvious trans individual at my workplace who was using the female loo… I think it made all 3 of us women a bit uncomfortable, because at one point “she” came out of the stall and we all just looked at one another, quite shocked. If it had been a changing room without stalls, I would have complained about it.

I also wonder how that works with our job, where part of our promotion ability is dependent on the degree of physical fitness we are able to maintain and demonstrate. “She” obviously had way more muscle mass than any of us; I think people with the advantage of going through male puberty should be held to male physical fitness standards. (I also believe the minimum standards should be equal for both sexes, but that’s neither here nor there.)

Christians in shopping centres is in no way comparable to single sex spaces.

And I emphasise the word 'sex'. People's beliefs about gender do not change their physical sex, which is the basis for laws and social contracts regarding single sex spaces.

Haven't you heard? They've put in place new security systems so the automatic doors won't open for anyone detected to have "preferred pronouns".

Eh?
Who is banned from shopping centres now?

I have dismissed non-binary genders? Where?

I don’t reduce male people with transgender identities to a binary they reject. I acknowledge their sex, particularly when it is important to the discussion at hand. Because those male people are still male people. Their belief that they have a transgender identity does not change the material reality that they are male.

“allowing you to disingenuously apply reasoning relating to men as a wider category rather than the tiny minority of people who are transgender.”

Those male people are male people. And in fact, the law of the UK for the purposes we are discussing on this thread actually regard them as ‘men’. Just because you don’t seem to like this, doesn’t change the material reality at all.

“It’s sticking your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes and not facing the reality that trans people exist and do not fit into your simplistic model.”

More hyperbole and emoting. No, I am not sticking my fingers in my ears and denying that transpeople exist. I think I have been very clear that male people remain male people even if they have a transgender identity. And laws are based around sex where it matters. And in female single sex spaces, sex does indeed matter.

My view is not controversial. It is not hateful. But again, please do carry on with the baseless and hyperbolic accusations of hate. Because every time you do it, readers see what you are calling hate.

Nobody is prevented from entering shopping centres, what are you wibbling on about?

Baffling. Is your view of the world the only legitimate one now ?

Should we be preventing christians from entering shopping centres because YOU personally don’t believe in the existence of god ?

It’s sticking your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes and not facing the reality that trans people exist and do not fit into your simplistic model.

Of course they exist but in order to be Trans they first have to belong to one sex - you cannot be a Trans woman if you are not a man.
It is pretty simple.

I don't believe in the existence of any genders. They're all made up. But non binary is the silliest of the lot.

Of course we recognise the existence of trans people. If they didn't exist, there wouldn't be a debate about which toilets and changing rooms they should be using, would there? Silly.

A trans person is any person who claims to identify as a member of the opposite sex to the one they actually are. That's all we need to know. There's no purity test, and even if there were, the reason why someone identifies as a member of the opposite sex still wouldn't be relevant to the rest of society.

The rest of us aren't defined by reference to how a small, self-selecting group of people perceive themselves, and our sex based rights shouldn't be conditional on that subset of people permitting us to have them.

The world does not revolve around people with gender identities.

And they fit into the "simplistic" male humans and female humans just the same as the rest of us. The difference between us and them is all in their heads.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO HAS BEEN/NOT BEEN ATTACKED
Men should not be in womens toilets - end of
I have no hate for any man based on how he dresses or whether he wears make up but I do not believe that they should be in women only spaces

I did ask DH what he would think if he saw a bloke in a dress in the gents; he responded that he would probably have a wry smile to himself.

"..reducing them to a binary they reject..."

They can reject it until they're blue in the face. The binary will still exist.

Human sex is binary and immutable, as in all mammals.

It is not possible to change sex nor is it possible not to have a sex.

That's reality.

I’m not supportive of trans people, by any means, but I do think sex and gender are different by definition. You can behave and/or attempt to appear more similar to the societal concept of one gender, or the other, or neither exactly, or either, from day to day.

But you will always be male or female (with the exception of the tiny, TINY percentage of the population who had a genetic mixup and were born intersex), and nobody is “forcing you into a binary” by acknowledging that— it is a binary, and you will inherently always be within it, no matter which gender you identify with. Advocating for the continuation and protection of single-sex spaces, and/or for third spaces for those who don’t want to use their appropriate single-sex space, is perfectly reasonable.