To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

Men (trans women) in a men's toilet is their correct place. It's women who are at risk if trans women (men) use their toilets.

There are plenty of examples of male people with transgender identities who don’t ‘dress as Barbie’ which was the point the pp was making. But I cannot think of one that had not done or said anything that was misogynist. Often fetishising ‘womanhood’ and women and them being a woman.

But I look forward as to why female people should accept any male person over the age of a child in need of care into their single sex spaces regardless of how they dress.

No, I literally didn't. It was complete gibberish.

Do you really want to use Serrano as an example of a rational, non fetishised TW? Maybe do some research first?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · Today 11:20

Did anyone understand a word of this?

I sort of get the impression that they are onside, but have had a huge misunderstanding...

I didn't understand it. Care to translate?

Of course you did,you just don't like the reply.

“it’s impossible to tell the difference between a trans woman who means no harm”

How about this:

it’s impossible to tell the difference between a transwoman who means no harm and one who does. Just as it is impossible to tell the difference between any male person who means harm and one who doesn’t.

Hence ALL male people should be excluded from any female single sex provision.

The problem is ALL male people.

No exceptions. And no denying that there are some male people with transgender identities who cannot respect female people. Despite the very large amounts of evidence that exists where those very male people with transgender identities do intend to cause harm to female people.

That also removes the need for any one judging whether toilets are more important or changing rooms.

Sometimes the problem is trans women though. They are no less dangerous than other men.

But you're right in the sense that you can't allow trans women access to women's spaces whilst keeping other men out. There's no way to tell the difference between the two.

The problem isn’t necessarily trans women, it’s that it’s impossible to tell the difference between a trans woman who means no harm and a man who is taking advantage of trans rights to abuse women. I think trans activists know this and are avoiding addressing this point by framing the argument as if we believe trans women are all predators, which is disingenuous.

I don’t know why toilets have become the main focus either, for me the biggest issue is changing rooms where women and girls are partially clothed or naked. Imagine getting undressed at the gym and a man walks in, you challenge him and are told you’re in the wrong and are transphobic because he’s actually a woman. For me this scenario is much more concerning than sharing toilets.

The tippety tippiest part of a very huge iceberg. Sadly. We have made huge progress in the last year or so though.

At least the govt recently changed the rules so if a man is convicted of sex offences against women he has to go in the male prison. No word on moving the existing male rapists or paedophiles and obviously if a man is convicted of violent or sexual offences against men (afaik, I always hope I’m wrong on that but it’s rare) they can go in a women’s prison but we can be thankful for small mercies.

I just think if that poor 60 year old lady Postmistress wrongly convicted of fraud in the PO scandal and wonder if she was placed in a prison with one of these men ruling the roost. She would be justified in feeling utterly victimised by the state.

Did anyone understand a word of this?

It is not controversial at all. Privacy and dignity is very important. Safety is not just about assaults either.

I cant even imagine how stupid this answer is!
What does this poster think that violence ends there & that it's a circus,well you'll be giving up up more than your child's rights as violence doesn't end where it starts it goes home too where you think your safe & it doesn't end with male on male violence,it's domestic and violence against women.

Yes, I think several police forces issued adverts encouraging these men to report ‘misgendering’ as a hate crime.

There have also been hate crimes recorded for women’s rights stickers in public. One lady put up an innocuous women’s rights poster in her front door and had a visit from the police to tell her to take it down.

Kellie Jay Keen was made to attend a police interview to explain why she had been ‘untoward about paedophiles’. Apparently reported by someone who heard ‘paedophile’ and assumed she was talking about ‘trans’ people which is a bit of a tell as the women’s rights campaigners make a point of NOT doing that.

@BundleBoogie I'm speechless.

Sorry that was to @Thelostjewels

Do you mean my post about the prisons? Yes it’s bad - when I think back over all the things I’ve learnt about men who identify as women in prisons it’s quite eyewatering.

There was a male paedophile (I forget his name rn) who was placed in a women’s prison on the South coast with a mother and baby unit.

Female prisoners have reported being sexually harassed, flashed at in the lunch queue and forced to use the communal showers with a man but punished when they complain.

Two extremely violent male criminals were placed in a women’s prison, apparently hoovered up all the covered sports prizes in a prison event and had sex with each other openly in view of the women. They were eventually separated.

A male murderer who tortured a man to death with a rolling pin and raped him was placed in a women’s prison.

Isla Bryson - say no more about his ‘post double rape charge trans identification’ and the subsequent decision to place join in a women’s prison which was only reversed due to public outcry.

I think it’s really important to remember that there are far fewer women’s prisons (only approx 4000 female prisoners compared with 18000 male last time I checked) and because women are a far lower security risk they are run differently from a security point of view. They are quite literally not geared up to house violent men and manage the obvious risk of placing sex offenders in the same spaces as women and often babies.

Policies on this originated in the early 90s when prison ministers discussed placing trans identifying men in women’s prisons with the purpose of socialising them as ‘women’. Utilising female prisoners as support creatures for often violent and sexually disordered men.

One male prisoner convicted of killing his male partner and hiding the body in a rolled up carpet served his sentence and was released. He then committed a serious sexual assault on a female shop worker (in a ‘trans’ clothing shop) in order to be sent back to prison so he could have ‘feminisation’ surgery and obtain his GRC.

He achieved all of this and on his second release he was invited as a special guest to the Houses of Parliament to advocate for men like him to be placed in women’s prisons. He now campaigns for more ‘trans rights’.

Sorry for the screed but sometimes it needs saying again for anyone new to this.

Fruitbat99 · Yesterday 19:25

No, I've never heard of a trans woman assaulting anyone in a toilet.

My considered advice is to consult some news reports dated later than 1987.

I also say that what a male person who shows such clear misogyny wears doesn’t make any difference to the way that male person treats female people. I listen to what they say and observe their behaviour rather than look at whether they present themselves as a woman. Although, any male person that presents themselves as their porn fantasy woman ideal in public is very concerning, and is telling society exactly how they view female people.

But really, the fact that Serrano is celebrated for writing about being degraded ‘as a woman’, makes me very keen to avoid them in spaces set aside for female people because they have publicly shown their distain for female people and they don’t seem to understand respecting female people’s boundaries.

HangryLikeTheHulk · Yesterday 18:18

Trans people are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violence.

Rubbish. Just because 2 or 3 had trouble in America, it doesn't mean that they're more likely to. In fact, in Britain, they're absolutely the safest demographic statistically and numerically. Children under 2 are more likely to be the victims of violence.

Remember, transw report a double take as a violent, transphobic hate crime.

I say that it doesn’t matter what a male person wears they are still male and not women. They still shouldn’t be in female single sex spaces.

Why should any male person be allowed by society to access female single sex spaces? Regardless of what they wear?

I agree. And what women mean by safety and what TRAs means by safety can be very different things in any case. Like the time some gender advocates refused to speak at a conference because they felt unsafe that a GC woman was speaking, via zoom, on a different day to them. The woman was then deplatformed. It does illustrate the talking at crossed purposes which has been weaponised.

Women are actual full humans who have a right to stuff that works for us in navigating the world, not just stuff that lessens the chances of us being murdered or raped.

@BundleBoogie well that's even worse than I thought then.

Surely that should be the standard though?

No one has said that men using the women’s spaces is an ‘existential threat’.

Toilets are sex segregated for reasons of women’s safety and privacy. Letting men who identify as women in means they are no longer sex segregated.

It’s fascinating how keen you are to argue for a certain group of men (ie any man that fancies it) to use women’s spaces when women are saying no.

Do you have a problem with respecting women’s boundaries?