To wonder if there's any actual evidence that's trans women are not safe in male loos?

”Routinely” - no. But there is a violence in men’s toilets. Googling “attack toilets XPlace” where XPlace is the (very small) city I live in comes up with a large number of attacks in the last year. In the football stadium, various pubs and even bloody Tescos.

When I was at school a lot of fights took place in the boys toilets. Either there or a random corner of the field. I suspect because both places were free of the eyes of teachers.

No. This is not ‘moving the goal posts’ this is pointing out what is listed under the specific crime.

Now comes the hyperbole.

Readers note:

When I have looked at these hate crime statistics in the past, they included such things as misgendering, seeing stickers that the person reporting didn’t agree with and a list of other things.

It has been reported in details released by the CPS also that domestic abuse includes a spouse or soon to be ex-spouse using ‘deadnames’ and calling their husbands by he / him pronouns.

Please do look deeper into statistics about hate crimes and domestic abuse statistics and see what they consist of for yourself.

> Demands evidence
> Gets evidence
> “No, not that evidence”

It’s hateful to single out trans people, a minority group subject to prejudice & violence and deliberately attempt to make them second class citizens. It reeks of segregation & apartheid.

Let's talk specifically about hate crimes, shall we?

You have to have one of five protected characteristic in order to be the victim of a hate crime. (Don't ask me why it's five when there are nine protected characteristics in the Equality Act.)

One of those five protected characteristics is transgender status.

Sex is not one of them.

This means that a woman cannot be a victim of a hate crime unless she has one of the other four protected characteristics in the hate crime legislation, i.e. sexual orientation, disability, race or religion (I think, off the top of my head).

What does this mean in practical terms?

Well, it means that a man who murders a woman in cold blood and later admits that he did it because he hates women has not committed a hate crime, whereas someone who spray paints "I hate trannies" on a trans person's front door has.

It also means that someone who murders a trans person because they hate trans people faces more time in prison than someone who murders a woman because they hate women.

Is a trans person's life more precious than a woman's? Because I'm struggling to see a different way of interpreting that.

Anyway.

Back to the point.

Of course trans people are going to be the victims of a disproportionate number of hate crimes in the statistics. This is due to the fact that crimes committed against trans people are usually classified as hate crimes, whereas crimes committed against most other people are treated as ordinary, lesser crimes.

Discuss.

Yep!

If there is a problem that TIM can use the voices they use to berate women and help their cause

No, I'm not.

And how is it 'hateful' to stand up for women's safety and dignity? Unless you think women are a lesser species than men, that is? Is that your position?

Look at you, moving the goalposts when the evidence doesn’t fit your hateful agenda.

Readers note:

https://x.com/gerrykeogh_/status/1926622168000983489?s=46

This video is of Sarah Baker who is a criminal who is a leading trangender activist. Please look Baker up (previous name is Alan) and Baker’s actions.

I have actually been in groups of women that Baker has spent hours screaming at. There is no doubt at all that Baker is a male person with a transgender identity. And was lauded by some members of the Labour Party. Even tipped to run for candidacy in my area.

I DO encourage any reader to do their own research when they see links posted.

Exactly @Ilitetallycantrememberanythinganymore All this fuss stirred up over a non- issue.

Under 'hate crimes' here we are including things like 'misgendering', which is not actually a crime, so these stats are basically nonsense.

Now compare the murder/rape rates of women versus 'transwomen' and we'll see who is truly vulnerable.

It would be interesting to know how many women on this thread have ever felt threatened or been assaulted by a transwoman in a public loo and how many have even noticed who is trans and who isn't. Like someone else said so much hatred towards such a tiny minority.

Crime Victimisation Rates
According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), in the year ending March 2020, 28% of transgender people in England and Wales reported experiencing crime, compared to 14% of cisgender individuals.

Hate Crimes
Transgender people are disproportionately targeted in hate crimes. In the year ending March 2023, police in England and Wales recorded 4,732 hate crimes motivated by transgender identity, marking an 11% increase from the previous year and the highest number since records began. This rise contrasts with a decrease in hate crimes based on race and sexual orientation during the same period.

Domestic Abuse
Research indicates that 19% of transgender individuals in the UK have experienced domestic abuse, compared to 7.9% of cisgender women.

Trans people ... face far more difficulties, prejudice and violence than the average woman.

There is zero evidence for this. You continually stating it doesn't make it true.

Regardiess, if transpeople feel they need third spaces, then by all means campaign for that. There is no justification for them accessing women's spaces, which are needed for women's safety and dignity.

You linked to a post showing somebody who is transphobic infiltrating pride with a fake sign in an attempt to entrap police officers into posing with their fake sign.

That sign is not created by or used by trans people. Yet you’re so willing to believe that transgender people are evil that you put all reason aside and take it at face value.

Trans people exist and face far more difficulties, prejudice and violence than the average woman.

If men are routinely attacking more vulnerable men in the men's toilets - regardless of what kind of vulnerability we're talking about here - why aren't we tackling this?

This is appalling. Why all the focus on TERFs when this terrible behaviour is coming from a completely different group?

You’d think so wouldn’t you.

I do know a trans identifying man, my DD’s flatmate who was beaten up in a nightclub, albeit in the roughest part of Kent. My DD claimed that was why he had to use women’s toilets. She also complained about him being ‘misgendered’ when he was out in a dress and woman-face and wearing fake boobs in an Indian restaurant where the waiter was calling him ‘sir’. He is a great hulking lump of a man.

I do think some trans are exhibitionists and deliberately try and provoke a reaction. Not that that is an excuse for violence.

Then again as a woman I carry out an automatic risk assessment for everything I do ☹️

Is there really plenty of evidence for this? Surely people aren't routinely attacked in men's toilets, vast majority of people are just going in to piss.

This is for @HangryLikeTheHulk by the way.

This was, I believe yesterday or Saturday in London. And this is just one of the topless protests that the group you categorise as ‘tiny’ and ‘vulnerable’ have done over the past month.

Oh… and don’t let us forget the pissing protests that have also happened. Of course, it wasn’t female people pissing in the streets in protest. It never is. It is that “tiny, vulnerable group” who are protesting.

Imagine that. Imagine showing the public just how little you understand boundaries by pissing in public, and protesting topless (and not getting arrested as a female person might if they were topless) to convince women and girls that those very people should be in female single sex spaces!

I have noticed that there are numerous pundits on social media who are now saying that they will no longer use the term transwoman now, not even with the space. Academics, authors and a large number of women’s rights campaigners. I stopped using the term years ago when I realised that if I used it, my posts were not as accurate or precise as I wanted. I do use it rarely now, often if I have to make a particular point.

They have their personal reasons but usually it revolves around the fact that they acknowledge that any mention of the word woman in relation to a male person causes confusion in the message.

I agree that we need to use accurate language. We still seem to be deleted for saying someone is a man sometimes. So I stick with ‘male people’ because I got tired of having to retype out deleted posts. But there is a benefit to using male people and female people too. Because I find myself not having to type out ‘women, girls and women with transgender identities’ to ensure people understand I also include all female people. Cumbersome, you betcha.

However, there is nothing quite like seeing the difference while some people are still up for playing linguistic games like “yes, I see we agree that women should be in female single sex toilets and not ‘men’. Transwomen are not ‘men’.” Whereas, persisting in saying all male people need to be excluded above the age of a child needing care is clear and stops the fuckwittery.

And what is also becoming apparent is that there are those who are still trying desperately to remain ‘kind’ and what they consider ‘moderate’. And those who then describe why they are moderate are usually those who personally will arbitrate who is and who isn’t ‘trans’ using their own personal criteria. Which is actually the opposite of kind when you see it posted.

It is also usually not moderate either. It will either be what feminists have been campaigning for more than a decade for. Or it still allows male people into female single sex spaces based on that person’s personally developed criteria that ignores the needs of female people and centres a special group of male people.

@LucyMonth

First - those stats in your article are 6 years old.

Second - how many men were sexually assaulted by other men in prison?

This is EXACTLY why males need to be in their own prison estate. They can be kept safe in segregation or whatever British prisons call it, NOT by putting males in with women.

What's your comment on literal convicted multiple rapist Karen White being housed with women? Do you seriously think that women should be out at risk to mitigate the risk to him, a - let me repeat - convicted multiple rapist?

It honestly astounds me that someone can post that and not use a single ounce of critical thinking about it.

It's really simple.... I think we need to stop calling transwomen transwomen.... this is what enables them to justify being in the women's

As soon as we say is it okay to have men in the women's loos, the whole perception changes....

And ps I agree - they are as safe in the men's as others are... and agree most men's loos can be quite intimidating for young boys.... It is a rite of passage, try it, get over the fear and it becomes normal... but perhaps chose which ones you go to (ie be aware - which is something women have been forever!)