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To think that society would not be immensely simpler were women denied the right to vote and own property

285 replies

BungeeCord · 24/05/2025 12:53

The link to this article was originally posted in FWR but I think this paragraph (written by trans woman Robin Moira White) is so offensive and telling that it needs to be seen widely.

translucent.org.uk/a-supremely-poor-job/

"We could simplify society immensely by removing women from voting, property ownership, and working in the professions, but that would not be right."

How? How would removing women from society make for a simpler society? Is this what some people think of women? Clearly some people do think that, I didn't think that was an acceptable belief to hold in our society though.

OP posts:
AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 24/05/2025 17:47

Um no. The author thinks that the Supreme Court judgment (over)-simplifies the legislation and society and does so unfairly.

That's why the author has sought to draw a parallel with women's rights as follows: We could simplify society immensely by removing women from voting, property ownership, and working in the professions, but that would not be right

Tandora · 24/05/2025 17:18

BundleBoogie · 24/05/2025 17:00

That’s not the point OP is making though. The point is that he thinks it would simplify society to remove women from participating in key aspects.

He claims to be a woman but his attitude towards women appears to be that of a man from the Victorian era. His point is not mitigated by observing that it would be wrong to do that - he thinks that you could simplify society by excluding women.

Some people like Lady Hale, many MPs and some Ministers argue that men like him should be allowed to take up spaces in women’s representation and speak on our behalf.

If some women can’t see the issue with allowing a man like him to speak and act on behalf of women then they may have a bad case of internalised misogyny.

“We could simplify society immensely by removing women from voting, property ownership, and working in the professions, but that would not be right."

The point is that he thinks it would simplify society to remove women from participating in key aspects.

Um no. The author does not think this any more than the author thinks the Supreme Court judgement “simplifies society”. The point being made is the opposite.

BundleBoogie · 24/05/2025 17:00

merryhouse · 24/05/2025 13:17

I think they're using hyperbole to point out that just because something's simpler doesn't mean we should do it. The last part of your quote is "but that would not be right", after all.

(there are plenty of bad ideas to counter that people are actually serious about, don't waste time on this one)

That’s not the point OP is making though. The point is that he thinks it would simplify society to remove women from participating in key aspects.

He claims to be a woman but his attitude towards women appears to be that of a man from the Victorian era. His point is not mitigated by observing that it would be wrong to do that - he thinks that you could simplify society by excluding women.

Some people like Lady Hale, many MPs and some Ministers argue that men like him should be allowed to take up spaces in women’s representation and speak on our behalf.

If some women can’t see the issue with allowing a man like him to speak and act on behalf of women then they may have a bad case of internalised misogyny.

“We could simplify society immensely by removing women from voting, property ownership, and working in the professions, but that would not be right."

BungeeCord · 24/05/2025 15:51

Tandora · 24/05/2025 15:43

The point the author is making- as you know- is that the Supreme Court decision is illogical, unworkable, unjust, wrong, just as it would be all of those things to remove rights from women.

Calling a policy “simple” , has nothing to do with whether it’s actually a good policy- whether it is practical, workable, reasonable, fair, just, etc.

I know that Robin Moira White is against the SC judgement and that that is the thrust of the article, obviously. But this statement in particular seemed odd, hence why I posted.

OP posts:
Tandora · 24/05/2025 15:43

BungeeCord · 24/05/2025 14:42

Yes. What was the point? I don't get it at all.

The point the author is making- as you know- is that the Supreme Court decision is illogical, unworkable, unjust, wrong, just as it would be all of those things to remove rights from women.

Calling a policy “simple” , has nothing to do with whether it’s actually a good policy- whether it is practical, workable, reasonable, fair, just, etc.

potpourree · 24/05/2025 15:15

As part of this, the point is made that just because a solution is simpler, that doesn't make it right or better than a complex solution.

Right - but OP was asking whether the example given WAS an example of making something simpler. I don't see that it would be.

BungeeCord · 24/05/2025 15:15

TheShed7 · 24/05/2025 15:01

The article is coming from a position where it disagrees with the high court judgement. As part of this, the point is made that just because a solution is simpler, that doesn't make it right or better than a complex solution.

So no, I don't think that's particularly odd, and I think the point the writer makes is fine. Whether or not you agree or disagree is a different point, but they aren't wrong to say a simpler solution isn't necessarily the right one.

What exactly is complicated about the solution Robin proposes? If anything I'd say it would be massively simpler for society to say "ah never mind, leave everything as it is, everyone is who they say they are, bad things don't happen". Simpler, not better.

OP posts:
TheShed7 · 24/05/2025 15:01

The article is coming from a position where it disagrees with the high court judgement. As part of this, the point is made that just because a solution is simpler, that doesn't make it right or better than a complex solution.

So no, I don't think that's particularly odd, and I think the point the writer makes is fine. Whether or not you agree or disagree is a different point, but they aren't wrong to say a simpler solution isn't necessarily the right one.

AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 24/05/2025 15:00

I don't get how it would make society simpler, given that women compose half of society.

Perhaps if one's unexamined misogyny led one to unthinkingly presume that person is a synonym for "man", and that society is a synonym for "multiple persons, i.e. lots of men"? If you start from a premise that men make up society, and that women are a modern-day adjunct to an original male-only society, the analogy makes sense.

BungeeCord · 24/05/2025 14:55

TheShed7 · 24/05/2025 14:45

The point is that making things simple doesn't always make them better.

This feels very obvious, whether you agree with it or not. It is very clear.

Do you not think it's odd to use the example of stripping womens rights making society simpler? How would you feel if it had said "society would be simpler if we could still enslave black people, but that would not be right"? Hopefully you would be disgusted and think first "wtf, how would that make society simpler" and secondly come to the realisation "jeeze some people actually think it would make society simpler. How worrying".

If the intention is to shock then I think a better example might have been "society would be simpler if we had the death penalty, but that would not be right".

I don't see where better or not better has been mentioned?

OP posts:
TheShed7 · 24/05/2025 14:45

The point is that making things simple doesn't always make them better.

This feels very obvious, whether you agree with it or not. It is very clear.

BungeeCord · 24/05/2025 14:42

Tandora · 24/05/2025 14:38

Exactly this. First post nails it.

Completely missed the point didn’t you OP- deliberately so, no doubt.

Yes. What was the point? I don't get it at all.

OP posts:
Tandora · 24/05/2025 14:38

Locutus2000 · 24/05/2025 13:16

Ridiculous title for a strawman thread. Nice dig at trans people though.

Exactly this. First post nails it.

Completely missed the point didn’t you OP- deliberately so, no doubt.

Velmy · 24/05/2025 14:37

BungeeCord · 24/05/2025 12:53

The link to this article was originally posted in FWR but I think this paragraph (written by trans woman Robin Moira White) is so offensive and telling that it needs to be seen widely.

translucent.org.uk/a-supremely-poor-job/

"We could simplify society immensely by removing women from voting, property ownership, and working in the professions, but that would not be right."

How? How would removing women from society make for a simpler society? Is this what some people think of women? Clearly some people do think that, I didn't think that was an acceptable belief to hold in our society though.

I expect it would make for a simpler society for men, who would go back to living in caves, hitting each other with sticks and not being able to find anything within the space of a year.

I suppose by extension that would mean our all-female Utopia would be simpler too 🥳

TwistedWonder · 24/05/2025 14:35

Robin Moira White is an entitled misogynistic twat. They fact they choose to present as female makes zero difference to their anti woman rhetoric

TheShed7 · 24/05/2025 14:33

You didn't select the whole paragraph though OP. Strange that you missed the first sentence of it that made the point that simple isn't better.

With respect to the Supreme Court, if you try to make it ‘simple,’ it just will not work. We could simplify society immensely by removing women from voting, property ownership, and working in the professions, but that would not be right.

BungeeCord · 24/05/2025 14:26

I'm not trying to misrepresent the argument at all. I haven't misgendered or said anything about trans people. I didn't think it would be very readable to copy the whole thing.

I posted that paragraph as it genuinely shocked me that someone could think that. Reading what's written here, I guess some people think men do think this (and clearly in Afghanistan they do). It just seemed so utterly absurdly misogynistic when I first read it, hence why I posted.

OP posts:
Tenducks · 24/05/2025 14:26

I suspect the author is making that illogical assumption that so many people make that there was once a simpler time when everyone knew their place, all women were married off young and stuck to the domestic area of life.

The thing that people have always done throughout history. Look back to a fictional time when things were just better.

Interesting that his go-to idea for a simpler time is one where women were just kept in their place.

I guess it feels tempting for anyone who is fed up with argumentative women who won’t just shut up and do the drudge work to dream of a time when men were living amongst powerless support humans.

potpourree · 24/05/2025 14:13

A 'strawman' is where someone misrepresents an argument. OP has quoted and linked to it so it can be read, in full and in context.

I'm not sure if a PP didn't understand the term or hadn't bothered to read the OP fully in their desperation to make out that someone's said something they haven't (!).

Wrt the question, I'd be interested to know what percentage of the workforce are women and what would happen if they stopped being able to work starting tomorrow.
A LOT of surgeries, court cases, medical treatments, public transport, banking, etc etc etc would not take place. In my view that would complicate things immensely, so I'm sort of interested in what 'simplified' means and why that's something to strive for?

SinnerBoy · 24/05/2025 14:11

The effect of these failures is to have produced a judgment which strikes down the rights and protections that trans people have enjoyed since 1999, with no evidence of harm to the general population.

Says White.

White conveniently ignores all of the women girls who have been frightened & intimidated, leered at & been propositioned, filmed, assaulted and yes, raped in female only spaces.

By men pretending to be women. White sees this as unproblematic.

Others think that Napoleon gives them messages over the radio, or that they are the reincarnation of Elizabeth the First.

Brefugee · 24/05/2025 14:08

BungeeCord · 24/05/2025 13:59

I guess simpler for men...maybe. But would it be better? Maybe the point is simpler does not equal better? Certainly not simpler or better for women!

i meant "men" not me, but i guess the sentiment is the same: simpler does not necessarily mean better.

But if we assume that broadly what men want is the same sort of thing, taking out the necessity of having to think about what women want when making decisions makes things a lot less complicated.

I'm still wondering at the reply saying it's a dig at trans people tho. Is it that RMW is trans and therefore any criticism is anti-trans? that is reducing RMW to one aspect of his personality. Not brilliant, eh?

Mrsbloggz · 24/05/2025 14:07

BungeeCord · 24/05/2025 13:59

I guess simpler for men...maybe. But would it be better? Maybe the point is simpler does not equal better? Certainly not simpler or better for women!

You might say it would be simpler for women because there would be no choice, you wouldn't have to weigh things up you just obey, do as you're told etc. You are kept in a child-like state and so you remain at a simple or primitive level of psychological development, I think that would be the argument?

I can't see that it would be in any way better for women, but men would want to argue that it was better for women because men benefit hugely from the oppression and subordination of women.

MattCauthon · 24/05/2025 14:05

Of course it would be simpler... for men. If they got to make all the decisions, if their neds and wants were the only ones considered, if their piorities were everyone's priorities, live would be much easier and simpler. For them. They wouldn't have to compromise. they wouldn' thave to prove themselves. They could go where they wanted, do what they wanted, spend what they wanted.

It's just flat out misogyny and becuase he's really really stupid, he thinks it's a hilariously insightful argument into right and wrong.

TheShed7 · 24/05/2025 14:05

It would be simpler to do it. As the article states though, this wouldn't be better or indeed right.

It's literally explained by all the lines around it. I feel this OP is almost trying to mislead the thread here to attack a trans woman. I wonder why.....

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 24/05/2025 14:03

History disproves his suggestion.