Page 4 | You scumbag You maggot you cheap lousy…

TeaAndToast8 · 2025-05-20T20:51:23+00:00

My second AIBU Of the night, husbands being very argumentative! Anyway, I’ve screenshot two examples of what the Kirsty MacColl might have meant in Fairy Tale of NewYork. Who is correct.. My opinion is the description underlined in red and my husband’s is blue.

sweeneytoddsrazor · 20/05/2025 23:34

I am aware that it is a derogatory word and only use it when referring to the food product but thinking about it, I don't remember hearing anyone (other than Americans) using it as such. I have heard plenty of people using offensive names when talking about gay men but never that one.

Doingtheboxerbeat · 20/05/2025 23:33

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:22

OK. I'm still not convinced that most of the people claiming "oh that was a common meaning" ever heard it used, but have just seen someone saying it on Facebook in this context and are just looking for a reason to excuse using it now. I've never seen it or heard it used like that on tv, in a film, in a book or in reality so I doubt it was common.

Show quote history

As soon as someone tells me a word is offensive then I immediately stop using it, even if it was something as innocuous as the word teapot. I don't use the word teapot in everyday language so that wouldn't be a great loss to my vocabulary.

My mum smokes 20 a day and has done since she was 11 years old, she also has early stages of dementia - no excuses, just facts. She has gay friends and they are not offended because of context. I wouldn't expect a stranger to see it like this though.

CorbyTrouserPress · 20/05/2025 23:32

Turmerictolly · 20/05/2025 23:30

Can’t cigarettes be called fags?! Didn’t realise that’s now offensive.

It’s not.

Calling a person a fag is offensive.

Calling a cigarette a fag is not offensive. Cigarettes don’t have feelings.

Turmerictolly · 20/05/2025 23:30

Can’t cigarettes be called fags?! Didn’t realise that’s now offensive.

ChessorBuckaroo · 20/05/2025 23:28

DustlandFairytaleBeginning · 20/05/2025 22:38

I don't think it's American at all besides mentioning NYC- I have played it for many Americans and they don't know the song at all and are surprised to find out its a Christmas song!

Show quote history

Correct. It has nothing to do with the racist white setter entity bar window dressing. The song is Anglo-Irish, using McGowan's dialect.

CeaselesslyIntoThePast · 20/05/2025 23:25

What unprofessional dictionary have you looked that up on??

Willyoujustbequiet · 20/05/2025 23:25

Illegally18 · 20/05/2025 23:23

Yes, that's what I thought it was.

Show quote history

Yes it's that too.

ChessorBuckaroo · 20/05/2025 23:24

ShamrockShenanigans · 20/05/2025 22:08

Having said that though, Fairytale of New York is an Irish/American song.

And it's well documented that faggot is a gay slur in America.

They certainly knew that when writing it.

No it's an Anglo-Irish song, using Anglo-Irish dialect. In regard to america (the white settler entity not the continental landmass) you are referring to the location where the song is set in, and even then some of it is fictional (the "NYPD choir" doesn't exist for example).

Willyoujustbequiet · 20/05/2025 23:24

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:22

OK. I'm still not convinced that most of the people claiming "oh that was a common meaning" ever heard it used, but have just seen someone saying it on Facebook in this context and are just looking for a reason to excuse using it now. I've never seen it or heard it used like that on tv, in a film, in a book or in reality so I doubt it was common.

Show quote history

I'm not denying it's seen as a slur now by many/most.

But that's not how it was used commonly when I was growing up in Northern England/Scotland round about the time the song was written.

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:23

Beautifulspringsunshine · 20/05/2025 23:18

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(unit)
https://www.onelook.com/?w=faggot

Show quote history

That's a bundle of sticks. Not a insulting term for a lazy person. What on earth was that supposed to prove?

Illegally18 · 20/05/2025 23:23

Allthesnowallthetime · 20/05/2025 21:56

Or a meatball made of offal?

Yes, that's what I thought it was.

Devonshiregal · 20/05/2025 23:23

blacksax · 20/05/2025 22:09

So... Americans use one of our words to mean something different in their country. And now we aren't allowed to use the word in its standard usage here because it offends them.

They've managed to get the meaning of 'bum' and 'tramp' wrong as well, and 'arse' and 'ass'. So I think we can safely ignore their interpretations. The twits.

Why so rude and bigoted? No need to spread hatred. Have enough of that about. Also faggot has been used here as an insult for at least 40 years as it was offensive when I was a kid. We didn’t remove every word from the dictionary back then, but if was offensive. And you know Americans came from here right? So I don’t think it’s “our word” any more than “their word”.

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:22

Willyoujustbequiet · 20/05/2025 23:17

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0895769X.2022.2029692?scroll=top&needAccess=true

There you go.

Show quote history

OK. I'm still not convinced that most of the people claiming "oh that was a common meaning" ever heard it used, but have just seen someone saying it on Facebook in this context and are just looking for a reason to excuse using it now. I've never seen it or heard it used like that on tv, in a film, in a book or in reality so I doubt it was common.

Willyoujustbequiet · 20/05/2025 23:20

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:18

It's been mentioned by lots of others, none of whom have provided any sort of source.

Show quote history

I posted a link for you.

Beautifulspringsunshine · 20/05/2025 23:18

AthWat · 20/05/2025 22:30

I'm quite old and I have never, ever, ever heard "faggot" used to mean a lazy person, or read it thus used in old books, or seen it in old films. Nor do any dictionaries I can quickly access give that meaning. Does anyone claiming it was have any examples?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(unit)
https://www.onelook.com/?w=faggot

Faggot (unit) - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(unit)

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:18

DeSoleil · 20/05/2025 23:07

It’s not offensive in the way you think it is as already mentioned by others it refers to being bone idle or lazy.

You do realise that The Pogues had a guitarist who was openly gay?

Philip Chevron (Philip Ryan).

You will now have to make a grovelling apology to your husband!

It's been mentioned by lots of others, none of whom have provided any sort of source.

Willyoujustbequiet · 20/05/2025 23:17

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:14

How come all dictionaries I can find list all the other, old, non derogatory meanings but not that one?

Edited

Show quote history

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0895769X.2022.2029692?scroll=top&needAccess=true

There you go.

stonebrambleboy · 20/05/2025 23:16

Ponoka7 · 20/05/2025 22:27

That's before we even get to fanny.

It's an Irish song. McGowan and Finer wanted it to be authentic. Authentic language was used. My DH was from County Clare (where the song was going to be set) faggot and bugger had nothing to do with gay people.

Interesting how some cultures are allowed and others aren't.

Show quote history

My mum used to say ' you're a bugger up back' she had absolutely no idea 🥴

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:14

Willyoujustbequiet · 20/05/2025 23:13

My mam when I was growing up lol

Show quote history

How come all dictionaries I can find list all the other, old, non derogatory meanings but not that one?

Willyoujustbequiet · 20/05/2025 23:13

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:11

Got any citations?

Show quote history

My mam when I was growing up lol

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:13

Platformbootsandaboa · 20/05/2025 23:11

it meant lazy when I was a child growing up in the West Midlands.

Show quote history

Not buying it unless anyone can show me some proof.

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:12

Middleagedstriker · 20/05/2025 23:04

It doesn't make sense that she calls him a faggot in the homophobic sense with the rest of the words.

Of course it does. It was a slur at the time because calling someone gay was considered derogatory.

Platformbootsandaboa · 20/05/2025 23:11

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:03

Who's "we"? Are you Irish then? I can't say "faggot" never meant a lazy person in Ireland but it certainly never, ever did in England. And I'm not sure the Irish have a stronger claim to own the English language than the Americans.

Show quote history

it meant lazy when I was a child growing up in the West Midlands.

AthWat · 20/05/2025 23:11

Willyoujustbequiet · 20/05/2025 23:05

It certainly did mean lazy in northern England/borders region.

Show quote history

Got any citations?

InterruptingRabbit · 20/05/2025 23:10

GenderFluid90 · 20/05/2025 22:51

Well unless you've lived with your head buried in the sand its also been used as a slur towards gay men in our community. A very nasty one.

But there's no convincing some people. Unless they've experienced it, they'll never appreciate how hurtful it can be

Show quote history

Tbf I don’t think she was disputing that it’s a slur. I think she was saying that it’s not offensive when used to describe a cigarette. Just like how supermarkets can sell faggots without being accused of homophobia.

Or how you might refer to a ditch as a dyke. Or drive past a yellow field and say that rape is beautiful (name comes from the Latin for turnip). Or call a dog a bitch.

I don’t use fag when talking about cigarettes, but since I don’t smoke and I don’t know anyone who smokes, this doesn’t really mean much since I barely ever say cigarette anyway. But in my head, for a reason I can’t explain, I see it as not really ok. But I don’t think it’s particularly unreasonable for someone else to say, no, I’m using its other meaning and I’m not being offensive.