To think unless you are ugly you’ve no idea what it’s like

I think this means that you do know the kind of looks OP is talking about and why they would have a detrimental effect on someone. The fact that you personally don't find it unappealing is beside the point.

I feel for you having to go through this, OP. There may be only so much you can do with regard to your looks but you can definitely ditch these nasty non friends and find some decent people. Also, the evidence of my eyes suggests that there are plenty of less attractive, even ugly, people who still find partners and have children, and if beauty made a perfect partnership, Hollywood would be full of the longest, happiest and most faithful marriages on earth.

my male friends do spend time on their appearance you know.

It's a lot more focused on the body, but teeth, hair! and plastic surgery for men is common too. It might be less on make-up (or not at all) but men who "let themselves go" as you hear are not seen as terribly attractive.

The comments saying you have to chose between your "worth" and your appearance are completely idiotic. You can do both.

You can be highly intelligent and educated as well as beautiful, you can be stunning and kind. None of them are related.

I agree with a poster above, I have never seen a truly UGLY face. It's probably different on a dating app, but in real life, you have a whole person, voice, charisma, general appearance, personality. I have seen people who don't seem to care much about their appearance, fair enough, people with scars, all sort of faces, but actually UGLY? No.

Some people might find a "Disney face" the most attractive, others will prefer a more "interesting" one for choice of a better word. There's no right and wrong.

I feel as though my life has been an experiment that proves OP’s theory. I have yo-yoed in weight my whole life. When I am fat I feel I become ugly and invisible and am treated appalllingly. When I lose weight the world becomes an entirely different place. Doors literally open for me that are shut in my face when I am fat. A friend once suggested it was because I am more confident when I am slim, but you get very confident when people constantly tell you how wonderful you look. I love myself even when fat but I have to admit it can sometimes be a very depressing experience.

when I am fat I listen to body positive podcasts. The women on there advocate against diet culture but unless I want to continue to be treated badly and excluded I see no alternative but to lose weight. I try to keep my self talk positive and not be hard on myself.

i don’t think I am even all that fat. I am size 12 but quite short so I really feel it when I gain weight.

A boyfriend (ex) once told me after I gained weight that I had gone from looking like a superstar to being just ordinary. I was a size 10.

I would never take weight loss jabs.

Well going by 'society makes me wear make up, have botox, etc.' I presume they dont

Sorry to derail but I absolutely love this and I shall carry it with me all day, thank you!

I’ve had friends openly laugh at the idea of me wearing a certain thing or going to a certain event.

What?? Unless you are completely deluded and have told them you intend to model for Vogue then they are not your friends. What is the context to this please?

No it was more just thinking of the comparison with men. How they dont spend the same amount of time or money or effort on all this as it doesnt exist for them (although its slowly starting to go that way). I wonder how many more generations until men have a makeup department 😆

I’ve never been attractive. Battled my weight my whole life. But I’ve never let it get to me. I have romanced and flirted with the confidence of a size 6 supermodel. Done business like a poet dressed Oprah. Dressed in whatever the fuck I want.
Works for me.

And why can't people think for themselves

who say they don't?

Because it would only work if everyone stopped. Anyway I was more just thinking out loud. Just in relation to the comment from the woman talking about how much more money she spends on her appearance compared to her husband.

Blimey.
Thank you.

I mean erm.. Of course!

Wise words!

I have never bought into it, but we keep on hearing 'society expects it' but who, what or where in society

And why can't people think for themselves

why on earth would I want to do that?

Regardless of what was fashionable today or elsewhere, society where I live has some "beauty" standards, and some women are classically stunning. They will be found beautiful by at least the majority. Perfect and even features, their photos look amazing, and real life even more.

I am not a classical beauty, far from it. Why on earth would I not use the tools I am lucky to find to improve my own appearance? I can work damn hard so my body doesn't show my age (when fully clothes😂) but my face needs help.

I am bloody lucky I live in a time where there are ways to make me ok with what I see in the mirror, I am not giving up on them.

Why are you friends with these people? They're cunts.

I know this is never going to happen but how amazing would it be if every single woman decided that as at 1st June they would stop wearing makeup, dying hair, getting eyelashes, eyebrows, nails done, getting botox etc, getting cosmetic surgery and every one of us was just 100% natural. I sometimes look at older TV programs even just from the 80s and there was a much more natural look even just back then. How much time and money we would all save if the beauty industry just didnt exist if we all just stopped buying into it.

Firstly, you need new friends.

I grew up miserable with my face and jealous of my prettier friends. Friends who often had men fancy them, show attention, make moves etc. Now I’m older and nearing 40, I’m starting to appreciate not getting attention from men and realising that I’ve managed to not have many uncomfortable, awkward of often scary experiences as a result.

Given your chosen opening sentence, I’d say you’ve still got quite a bit of work to do on your own inner life.

It's not about weight, though. If you are genuinely ugly, it is about your face. Being overweight, as long as you are not conspicuously, head-turningly obese actually helps with the 'abuse from strangers' side of things because the kind of men that do this put mildly overweight women into the same bracket as middle-aged women, i.e. invisible. If you have a good figure, they notice that and it's as if you've outraged them by having a good figure but still being totally unfuckable. I discovered this as a yo-yo dieter throughout my 20s and 30s.

I agree OP.

It sounds like you’ve had extremely bad experiences, and I also agree your prettier friends sound bitchy. That’s unfortunate. There are nicer people out there if you hunt for them.

I’m now in my 40s and I still care about my (not great) looks but I’ve mostly given up trying to make myself fit a conventionally attractive look. On the other hand my close friend was probably a 2 on a 1-10 scale and when we were in our late teens and twenties the impact on her self esteem was devastating. She did an amazing job of making the most of her looks - gorgeous hair, slim - but she remained self conscious and shy and therefore had zero luck with dating. It was painful as she had a wonderful warm, witty personality - but no fella took the time of day to befriend her. And she didn’t have the confidence to make the first step. She was single for over 15 years.

Trinny is objectively pretty though? She’s hardly a good example of a plain but slim woman.

And yeah your male friend sounds truly odious.

I am over 60 and have worked in several countries in numerous jobs and am not sure I have ever met an ugly woman. I've met a few plain women, but not actually ugly. I've met a lot of women who don't take care of themselves, but again, that's not ugly.

OP, I get what you are saying. I was conventionally pretty when young, then put on weight and became invisible overnight. I notice the difference. But there's a lot that can be achieved just with good self care. Healthy weight, toned from workouts is the best start. Clean, well cut, glossy hair in a style that suits your face shape. Good skin care and light, natural make up. Well-shaped brows and nails. Well - cared for teeth, whitened if stained, with any missing or malformed teeth capped. Well-fitting clothes in colours that suit, with a bit of flair to them, whether vintage, classic or high fashion. A spritz of light perfume.

I bet with all these things, no one would call you ugly. I worked with a woman with a wandering eye. One eye would focus on you, the other would roll in any direction. Maybe that is conventionally ugly. But she had an amazing figure, gorgeous hair, dressed well and was really bubbly. She had loads of friends and loads of men fancied her. She just didn't let it bother her at all.

who are these “friends”?? They sound very strange and mean

I'm not going to come on here and say no one is ugly... but I don't know anyone I would describe as ugly.

I'm sorry op that you've had crap experiences with people. Those comments can be really hard not to take to heart.

One of the most attractive people I knew was an older male manager I had when I was in my 20s. Not traditionally good looking but was clever and fun, I did have a crush on him. And luckily either he didn't realise or was a better man than some as he was never inappropriate.

I realise there's different standards for women. Every time I put on my make up, or my skin care, or go to the hairdresser to get my roots done, I think about all the money I'm paying compared to my DH.