To be scared people aren't taking far-right extremists seriously?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9dq18q397yo

The group were also prepared for what they believed was an inevitable race war.

On Wednesday, three far-right extremists were convicted in Sheffield Crown Court

That sounds to me as if it was taken very seriously.

@BundleBoogie

"This thread highlights how difficult some people want to make any conversation about immigration and nationality - attempting to silence people with constant accusations of racism. This is part of the problem with people getting frustrated and wanting to protest."

This is a thread about the far right and the debate around immigration.

Suggesting that people are protesting because they feel they can't debate our immigration policies without being told they're racist, ignores the fact that so much of the rhetoric around immigration IS ACTUALLY RACIST!

@BundleBoogie

see, there you go - I didn’t say anything about being white

You keep talking about skin colour.

. You’re the one going on about ‘unsullied bloodlines’ which again, I haven’t mentioned

You described yourself as indigenous. That means you're directly descended from the ancient Celts with no mixed breeding. Therefore unsullied. Despite thousands of years of people coming to the UK via the Roman empire, via invasion, via immigration - you are indigenous.

. I gave the question about Nigerians as an example but I also gave the example of Spanish people - not black last time I looked.

You didn't mention the Spanish.

well obviously as you pointed out, the ‘indigenous’ people are Celts so while we have various influxes of European settlers over hundreds of years, we don’t see people of colour in those groups. I’m not being racist, they are just facts.

That's not true, see my answer above.

People who come to this country and gain citizenship often still think of themselves in relation to to their ancestry and heritage - hence use of the term ‘British of Indian origin’

I'm not sure what you're trying to do here. Again it seems like you're creating a two tier citizenship. People with British citizenship are British.

Your method of cutting and pasting and removing context is getting quite confusing so I’m not going to respond to any more giant posts trying to make out that I’m a racist.

I'm quoting you, if you're coming across as racist, that's not my responsibility.

This thread highlights how difficult some people want to make any conversation about immigration and nationality - attempting to silence people with constant accusations of racism.

I haven't called you racist. I said you seem very caught up with skin colour. You're 'indigenous' ie white. You haven't answered why it's so important.

You seem to be proud of being white, rather than British. I'm also proud of my ancestry, not so of my skin colour.

see, there you go - I didn’t say anything about being white. You’re the one going on about ‘unsullied bloodlines’ which again, I haven’t mentioned. I gave the question about Nigerians as an example but I also gave the example of Spanish people - not black last time I looked.

You seem to have a two tier version of what it means to be British 'indigenous' or white and then people of colour.

well obviously as you pointed out, the ‘indigenous’ people are Celts so while we have various influxes of European settlers over hundreds of years, we don’t see people of colour in those groups. I’m not being racist, they are just facts.

People who come to this country and gain citizenship often still think of themselves in relation to to their ancestry and heritage - hence use of the term ‘British of Indian origin’ (this is just an example, I’m sure there are other non brown examples as well but BoIo are one of the biggest groups).

Your method of cutting and pasting and removing context is getting quite confusing so I’m not going to respond to any more giant posts trying to make out that I’m a racist. The good thing is that I know I’m not (despite what you like to imagine in your posts).

This thread highlights how difficult some people want to make any conversation about immigration and nationality - attempting to silence people with constant accusations of racism. This is part of the problem with people getting frustrated and wanting to protest.

I'm a bit confused about what you're talking about. You seem to be against immigration because foreign men were sexually harassing you.

Now you're saying that you are harassed by both British and foreign men. In that case the problem is some men, not their nationality.

I completely agree that a lot more needs to be done to keep women safe. I'd like to see on the spot fines, more visible police, better street lighting and women's concerns taken seriously.

not feel compelled to verbally harass and label another person who is legally dressed and not harming another.

I completely agree.

It's not "only" from people speaking [ particular language ] . Please don't try and discredit my argument by trying to reduce it as absurd.

If you lived or worked in this area of London, you would know.

I don't want to be called a whore repeatedly for wearing office clothing!

I really can't understand why this is such a hill people want to die on. I think it's ok for us to live amongst each other, and not feel compelled to verbally harass and label another person who is legally dressed and not harming another.

@JacquesHarlow

As a 59 year old woman who has lived in UK, USA, Sri Lanka, India, Thailand & Kenya I can tell you that sexual harassment, cat calling and sexual assault is ubiquitous and universal. 1 in 6 women in the UK will experience sexual assault in her lifetime, the vast majority by someone within their social circle. This statistic has remained steady for decades.

Using the 'brown men are dangerous to women' in the context of debate around immigration is the oldest far right trope in the book.

Part of the problem is that people who do take far right extremism seriously tend to be condescended, patronised and gaslit into the shadows.

Believe you me, some of us do take it seriously.

@JacquesHarlow

Do you think if we have fewer Asian/African immigrants living in the UK the country will become safe for women?

Is that why you want to see the drawbridge pulled up for new generations of migrants?

What would you have said to the people who used EXACTLY the same arguments against previous waves of immigrants in the 1950's/1960's and 1970's?

I'm surprised to hear that you've only received harassment from foreign men. I started being harassed when I hit puberty, I've been assaulted a few times and was not assaulted by foreign men.

The cat calling and shouts from vans are not from foreign men. I think I've had one comment from a foreign man in my lifetime and live in a very diverse area.

I'm sorry to hear of your experience.

Would add, 70% of immigrants who came on the Windrush were men. Compared to 71% of asylum seekers in 2023.

I was going to ignore this but this really bothers me @nomas

I am not an immigrant.

I am the daughter of one. One of my parents was an immigrant.

So for you to call me an "immigrant" just because I identified myself as a 'person of colour" (OP's phrase) earlier in the thread is just so depressing.

Anyways let me try and get past that -

Being categorised as an "immigrant" still does not mean that I should somehow automatically put the needs of ANY immigrant no matter who they are, their values, and how they wish to interact with us in the UK above every other attribute about myself.

I would rank other attributes about myself as MORE important than being ethnically diverse and therefore identifiable as the 'daughter of an immigrant'.

These characteristics include:

• being a woman (and therefore wanting to remain safe in a culture which accepts women as equal, allowed to traverse roads without being shamed or shouted at etc)
• being British and having been raised in a culture and legal framework which is understandable and more importantly foundational to life here - and which isn't superseded or circumvented by another, religious legal framework

I do not blame any one culture for anything. I know how my father was very occasionally treated decades ago. It is why I respect everyone who comes here and wants to make a better life, who wants to celebrate Britain and be part of our culture.

However I find it staggering that some people are wilfully failing to see that at some point we have to talk about those other characteristics, and whether women are being considered here.

As a woman I would like to be able to walk to the Tube without constant comments, and shouts of phrases in a language I happen to understand because of my studies, but which do not make me feel comfortable. I am not a 'whore' if I wear a knee length pencil skirt to work.

I want my DDs to feel comfortable that they will not be targeted as 'loose' just for being British young women, in the way that this took place systemically in a Yorkshire town.

Do I have the right to want these things?

@JacquesHarlow

"You'll find "non white" people like me are also concerned about mass arrivals of young men, from particular communities and countries, time and time again arriving without families or any context, and slipping away into society without any identification, any screening, any support for integration. Where I live, this concerns people. Not their colour, but the culture issues."

The 'mass arrivals' you refer to are estimated to made up 6% of the immigration total last year.

When you refer to 'particular communities they come from' - not sure what you're inferring, can you clarify?

If you're saying that a high percentage of people arriving by boat are not presenting to immigration authorities and are in fact just living illegally in the UK, not claiming asylum, then how can you know about what communities they come from? Can you link to the research you've looked at that quantifies the number of migrants that are arriving in the UK in an irregular fashion and not presenting to immigration authorities and claiming asylum?

I live in an area where there are large numbers of new immigrants and asylum seekers. There are 4 mosques, a large hotel housing migrants and a migrant hostel within walking distance of my home. It's a very poor area where almost all of the businesses on the high street are immigrant run. I'm in all the local community groups on facebook and know lots of people in the area - I've lived here for 24 years. I don't hear people expressing worry about 'cultural issues' connected with immigration - they're all about the impact of severe poverty, inadequate council services, and poor housing in the area.

BTW - the complaints about the fact that most asylum seekers are young men - this is constantly repeated on EDL and Reform social media, usually alongside comments referring to them a 'young men of fighting age', it might be worth reading some information about why this demographic are disproportionately represented among asylum seekers and migrants all around the world, information that doesn't come directly from a source whose primary aim is stirring up fear, resentment and mistrust of migrants.

www.bestforbritain.org/myths_male_asylum_seekers_international_mens_day

Sure.

It’s the Left that are causing all the problems not the far right!

Anti immigration does not mean racism. Stop aligning the two.

@BundleBoogie

"I’m glad you admit that white British people exist though and our existence is just a fact and not political. I still don’t understand what you think is ‘far right’ about being indigenous or white though?"

How is it possible to have a sensible discussion with someone who makes comments like this? Who is being attacked as 'far right' on the strength of their ethnicity alone?

The point in my side note is very relevant as it’s a direct response to what you wrote (which I quoted.)

And I have no idea what you mean by “people from other countries”.

We are all Britons discussing British views on identity.

If you want to believe that the SNP is remotely the equivalent of the BNP, EDL or Britain First knock yourself out.

But to be clear - this is your “vicious diatribe”

www.reuters.com/article/fact-check/scotland-health-ministers-speech-about-racial-injustice-and-lack-of-diversity-i-idUSL1N3531Q5/

You don't understand what I'm talking about which is understandable as you've taken what I've said out of context. My argument is that there's more to being British than being white.

@JacquesHarlow , thank you so much for your wonderfully measured and sensible response to what I consider a quite hysterical question.

Your last sentence is nonsense! Infact, you've gone so far left you've ended up in a 360 degrees tailspin. Do you not agree that you should be able to confidently assert that you are Black British and proud?!

@BundleBoogie

I didn’t say it did

Or Nigerians that have a national identity that requires a Nigerian to be black and have originated from Nigeria?

Yes you did.

Do you object to other countries having their own standards and definitions of what it means to be Nigerian for example (there are lots of people who say they are proud Nigerians) even if that excludes people based on their race?

Why would it exclude people based on their race? I did answer your question, I said having ancestry or citizenship makes you a Nigerian.

You seem very concerned with the colour of people's skin.

Your words. You brought in the word ‘indigenous’ - I didn’t. Your post, whether it was intentional or not, implied that you think the concept of ‘indigenous or white’ is somehow ‘far right’.

I do think that the way people are using indigenous is far right. It seems to refer to skin colour. You seem to be saying that authentic British people are white. You seem to have a two tier version of what it means to be British 'indigenous' or white and then people of colour.

In direct answer to your question, although I haven’t claimed to be ‘indigenous’, I probably am quite indigenous, having strong Celtic family lines that have been traced back 100s of years and some very interesting people and stories in that family. I am proud of that and I’m sad for anyone not proud of who they are and where they are from which shapes the person they are today.

The Ancient Celts were thousands of years ago I'm afraid. Your unsullied bloodline must go back thousands of years to be 'indigenous'.

You seem to be proud of being white, rather than British. I'm also proud of my ancestry, not so of my skin colour.

I notice that you can’t address my actual point, you just make up stuff I haven’t said and argue with that.

I did address your points but you didn't like the answers so you ignored them. I also quoted you directly so couldn't have been making things up.

What's more far right than discussing skin colour and how proud we are of it?

Or do you just not recognise racism when it’s directed at the English?

Did you hear Humza Yusufs vicious diatribe about how many ‘white’ people were in positions of power in Scotland (a predominantly white country) and seemingly forgetting that he was in one of the most senior positions of power in Scotland.