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Part 2 - To as if you are not a Christian , what non Christian values you live by

65 replies

Parker231 · 18/05/2025 20:28

Follow on from the earlier thread

OP posts:
Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 21:11

Here's a link to an English study Catherine Pepinster
April 8, 2025
12:01 am
News
By Catherine Pepinster
Generation Z is leading a turnaround in the popularity of Christianity and a rise in church attendance in England and Wales, according to research published today.
A survey by the Bible Society and YouGov finds those aged 18-34, which includes Gen Z and Millennials, are newly drawn to Christian beliefs, with renewed interest not only in being part of a church but also in prayer, reading the Bible and social activism based on faith.
After years of declining congregations, the most dramatic increase in churchgoing, according to the research, is among young men. The image of churches being filled by elderly women and few others is no longer true, the society says.
Dr Rhiannon McAleer, the report’s co-author and Bible Society’s director of research, said: “We are seeing something we have never seen before.
“The results are pointing to community being the key. We are looking at young adults coming along with friends. They are not totally unchurched; sometimes grandparents have had an impact on their faith.”
The survey, The Quiet Revival, was conducted by YouGov among 13,146 people in England and Wales, and is an update on the Bible Society’s previous research conducted in 2018. It shows that in 2024, 5.8 million people were attending church at least once a month — 12 per cent of the population — compared with 3.7 million, or 8 per cent in 2018.
The most significant upturn was among the 18-24s (Gen Z) with 16 per cent of them attending church at least once a month; six years earlier, only 4 per cent did so.

Young men showed a marked increase in churchgoing, with 21 per cent in 2024, up from 4 per cent in 2018; young women’s attendance rose up to 12 per cent in 2024, from 3 per cent in 2018.
This revival is most evident in Catholicism and Pentecostalism, although the survey reveals a noticeable decline in popularity for the Church of England. Of those in the older Millennials category, 35 per cent say they are Catholic, 11 per cent are Pentecostal and 25 per cent identify as Anglican.

News - Religion Media Centre

https://religionmediacentre.org.uk/category/news/

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 21:06

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 20:40

Not just boys, Im interested in why you think that. My child is getting baptised at pentecost her choice as a teenager. Her old school friend is also getting christened at another denomination. My friend, female, 42 has just joined a Baptist Church. Edit as just realised you said about feminism. What is that all about?

Edited

Just saw your edit, after I'd posted my reply.

Per the other links I've posted, the young men who are finding Christianity have a high incidence of a sense of victimhood and distinctly anti-feminist beliefs (including belief that women should lose the right to vote). At the same time, young women are turning their back on Christianity at a rate not previously seen.

You don't have to look far to see some Christians, particularly Christian women, expressing concern over this trend. The OP, who seems to have seen the top line numbers about growing participation in Christianity among Gen Z, seemed to believe it a rebellion against atheism (and, presumably, any good thing). I think that, whether you're Christian or not (but provided that you are anti-misogyny), the demographics of this increase should actually be a cause for concern.

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 21:05

By the way your polls are from Americans. We live in England. We don't have many evangelical churches here.

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 20:59

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 20:25

Instinct, initially. We have certainly seem a rise in a sense of victimhood among young men (particularly young white men), with increased hostility towards women and feminism. That young men are the only group showing an increased interest in Christianity didn't seem likely to be a coincidence (particularly when anti-feminism and Christianity are both heavily associated with right wing politics, particularly in the US, which seems to be the leading the anti-women discourse and exporting it).

I hadn't looked into this before your post, but a quick Google does indicate that young, male Evangelicals in the US (the sole group in which Christianity is seeing a revivial) are far more likely to have a strong sense of victimhood than other demographics of beliver.

https://johnhawthorne.substack.com/p/about-those-religious-young-men

You do know there are loads of Christian denominations don't you? Evangelicals are more to the right I would agree but a lot of Christians are very left leaning. Obviously all Christians should not believe in abortion but that doesn't make them anti feminist it makes them pro life. I work with someone who is a staunch atheist, she is quite obnoxious and rude with her views on Christians. Another one said she thinks it's a load of crap but got married in a church! There are a fair few atheists who are hypocrits in that regard, happy to celebrate Christmas and have thier kid cast as Mary in the school play but then say it's a load of bollox. Each to their own but I don't think people should be rude to one another about beliefs / non beliefs.

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 20:50

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 20:40

Not just boys, Im interested in why you think that. My child is getting baptised at pentecost her choice as a teenager. Her old school friend is also getting christened at another denomination. My friend, female, 42 has just joined a Baptist Church. Edit as just realised you said about feminism. What is that all about?

Edited

Because data from many surveys shows a significant uptick in Gen Z men joining the church, and other surveys show Gen Z women to be leaving the Church in record numbers.

https://www.americansurveycenter.org/newsletter/young-women-are-leaving-church-in-unprecedented-numbers/

Young Women Are Leaving Church in Unprecedented Numbers 

The gender divide in religiosity has flipped

https://www.americansurveycenter.org/newsletter/young-women-are-leaving-church-in-unprecedented-numbers/

NaeRolls · 19/05/2025 20:44

Am atheist. I think we all need to work out our own values, and also our values will be based on our life experiences.

I've found I'm happier when I try to live by principles like honesty and treating others as I'd like to be treated.

I also like some Zen principles like acceptance, tolerance, compassion etc.

I also find the philosophy of absurdism helps me deal with things like sadness.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 19/05/2025 20:44

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 20:26

OK let's try again. Are morals relative?

Here we go again…. I’ll humour you with a reply, despite the fact you don’t have the courtesy to do the same to other posters, but if your posting style carries on as before I won’t continue to engage, because it’s offensive (for which you haven’t apologised) and juvenile.

Of course morals are relative. They have evolved, as mankind has evolved, over hundreds of thousand of years to nurture, develop and shape society and civilisations. Many organisations over the years have tried to codify them and coral followers, but their popularity rises and falls. However human nature, our inquisitiveness, innate desire to be social, develop mutually beneficial relationships and create a framework within which to live transcends any made-up deities, as civilisations over tens of thousands of years have shown. They’ve all believed certain deities along the way…none have been real, and none have outlived the moral imperatives that are innate in mankind.

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 20:40

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 20:08

I suspect the rise in religiosity, that seems to be confined to young men, is more a rebellion against women and feminism than a rebellioun against atheism.

Not just boys, Im interested in why you think that. My child is getting baptised at pentecost her choice as a teenager. Her old school friend is also getting christened at another denomination. My friend, female, 42 has just joined a Baptist Church. Edit as just realised you said about feminism. What is that all about?

CurlewKate · 19/05/2025 20:39

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 20:06

Alex O'connor, Richard Dawkins, Ayan Hirsi Ali hasn't just softened but converted.

as far as I am aware, Alex O’Connor and Richard Dawkins are still atheists-unless I’ve missed something? I don’t know enough about Hersi Ali to comment.

NaeRolls · 19/05/2025 20:37

NestEmptying · 18/05/2025 20:59

Non-Christian values? The Life of Brian had some good ones. Don't blindly follow someone without thinking it though. You've got to work it out for yourselves... You're all individuals...

I'm not!

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 20:35

There's some more data, from the same study, in this article, which shows a correlation between young Christian men and misogyny (a belief in repeating women's rights to vote).

https://medium.com/backyard-theology/why-gen-z-men-are-flocking-to-church-e1b2bdb64006

I'm not intending this to be an argument against Christianity, OP, but assuming you are not vilerantly anti-feminist (and I have no readon to think you are), I do think the demographics of the rise in participation in Christianity should be a cause for concern, not celebration, from your perspective as well as an atheist one.

Why Gen Z Men Are Flocking to Church

How Grievance Culture, Gender Anxiety, and TheoBros Are Shaping Young Male Faith

https://medium.com/backyard-theology/why-gen-z-men-are-flocking-to-church-e1b2bdb64006

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 20:26

Tryingtokeepgoing · 19/05/2025 20:24

Nowhere have a said you’re an idiot. I’m just in favour of debate and openness. It’s a shame you are not. And it’s easy enough to read your posts - there’s not a lot to actually dissect, and you did ask me the question. So I did you the courtesy of replying. Were you hoping I wouldn’t?

But don’t worry, you haven’t hit a nerve. I am happy with my take on the world, and I am happy that you are happy with yours. What I am not happy with is you telling me I am wrong about what I know and believe :)

OK let's try again. Are morals relative?

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 20:25

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 20:10

What are you basing this on?

Instinct, initially. We have certainly seem a rise in a sense of victimhood among young men (particularly young white men), with increased hostility towards women and feminism. That young men are the only group showing an increased interest in Christianity didn't seem likely to be a coincidence (particularly when anti-feminism and Christianity are both heavily associated with right wing politics, particularly in the US, which seems to be the leading the anti-women discourse and exporting it).

I hadn't looked into this before your post, but a quick Google does indicate that young, male Evangelicals in the US (the sole group in which Christianity is seeing a revivial) are far more likely to have a strong sense of victimhood than other demographics of beliver.

https://johnhawthorne.substack.com/p/about-those-religious-young-men

About those religious young men

Reactance, anti-feminism, and politics

https://johnhawthorne.substack.com/p/about-those-religious-young-men

Tryingtokeepgoing · 19/05/2025 20:24

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 20:09

I wonder, if I'm so stupid and such a thick idiot, what nerve I have hit for you to spend this long dissecting my posts! What is really going on here? I've been vastly outnumbered in this discussion by people very hostile to my worldview, why are you spending your precious time trying to kick me while I'm down?

Nowhere have a said you’re an idiot. I’m just in favour of debate and openness. It’s a shame you are not. And it’s easy enough to read your posts - there’s not a lot to actually dissect, and you did ask me the question. So I did you the courtesy of replying. Were you hoping I wouldn’t?

But don’t worry, you haven’t hit a nerve. I am happy with my take on the world, and I am happy that you are happy with yours. What I am not happy with is you telling me I am wrong about what I know and believe :)

Tryingtokeepgoing · 19/05/2025 20:18

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 19:54

There were too many posters and comments for me to pick up each strand and deal with substantively, and clearly would be a waste of time.

What I would say, is that increasingly younger people in the West are turning to religion with fresh eyes, perhaps somewhat in rebellion against their atheist parents. Many of New Atheisms figureheads and most devoted advocates have hugely softened their stances. It will be interesting to see how this develops

Edited

Is that your best attempt at an apology? And admission that maybe, just maybe, you are not right? Of course not. It follows your usual posting pattern. Post something ridiculous. Ignore the substantive responses. Change tack with a different post. It’s okay if you don’t have the skills, or don’t want, to debate but surely you see how silly that approach is?

Anyway, I’m not sure what you say carries much weight. The facts show that Christianity globally is growing at a slower rate than the global population, so in absolute terms it’s going up, but proportionally fewer and fewer people subscribe to the church. We are now all well under a third of the global population being Christian, trending towards only a quarter. It going up in Africa and South America…and down almost everywhere else. In some areas it’s increasing in young men…a worrying trend indicating perhaps increasing radicalisation. It’s also interesting to reflect that the areas it’s growing in are some of the poorest and most exploited in the world. I’d like to think that’s because the church is there doing good. Sadly, history shows that the church just likes to exploit the poor…

Also, atheism, by definition, doesn’t need a figure head. I’m surprised you need that pointing out. There might be particularly vocal atheists, but that doesn’t make them a figurehead, except in your mind.

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 20:16

pointythings · 19/05/2025 20:13

Nobody is trying to kick you. We're pointing out that you have been rude, dismissive and belittling to atheists. If you really can't see that, you need to do some reflecting on how you communicate.

Double standards. Humans be humaning 😁 have a nice evening

pointythings · 19/05/2025 20:13

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 20:09

I wonder, if I'm so stupid and such a thick idiot, what nerve I have hit for you to spend this long dissecting my posts! What is really going on here? I've been vastly outnumbered in this discussion by people very hostile to my worldview, why are you spending your precious time trying to kick me while I'm down?

Nobody is trying to kick you. We're pointing out that you have been rude, dismissive and belittling to atheists. If you really can't see that, you need to do some reflecting on how you communicate.

pointythings · 19/05/2025 20:11

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 20:08

I suspect the rise in religiosity, that seems to be confined to young men, is more a rebellion against women and feminism than a rebellioun against atheism.

I agree with this. Young men aren't going to find obedient little women anywhere else. I think there's probably a subset of Gen Z who are turning to religion because life is tough right now - but I wonder how long their devotion is going to last when nothing changes. And what I see among my DCs' peers is very far from increased interest in Christianity - it would be interesting, for example, to see whether we are also seeing a rise in paganism.

I note that OP from the last thread hasn't bothered to address a single point made by pp around how disrespectful and dismissive she was of atheists. No insight or no excuses?

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 20:10

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 20:08

I suspect the rise in religiosity, that seems to be confined to young men, is more a rebellion against women and feminism than a rebellioun against atheism.

What are you basing this on?

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 20:09

Tryingtokeepgoing · 19/05/2025 19:25

You might interpret it that way, but you have managed to interpret many things incorrectly so I am not surprised. It was not my intention though. I can lay it out for you. I can’t make you understand it. The very premise of your original thread was to bait atheists, and you alone managed to make 6 pages of posts on that, so it’s a bit rich to feel that one post over more than 40 pages is baiting you! Despite that, all of those who don’t subscribe to your way of thinking have engaged in good faith and all you could do was studiously ignore the many facts, discussions, debates that didn’t fit your narrow view on the world. You responded to those where you thought you were on safe ground. And often misjudged that.

Here is a sample of some of your more denigratory and / or insulting posts:

In discussion on objective truth, in which you were floundering badly, you posted To put my argument in a nutshell - your morals sound very very Christian to me. Despite your hostility to Christianity, it's moral system is the water you swim in and feels so obviously true. My fear is that atheism seems oblivious to this, and anti-theists are busily sawing away at the branch upon which they stand.

You posted that despite the fact it’s clearly inflammatory to suggest that atheists, somehow, aren’t entitled to have a different view of how morality evolved. Especially as there’s no evidence to support your point of view. We do not, and do not want, to live in Christianity’s moral waters. Firstly, they are too murky for me, and secondly, Christianity has taken an existing moral framework and corrupted it for its own use. Have you ever wondered how the church became so wealthy, and why it hasn’t helped more people at a practical level?

Then of course there’s your reply to a post on how atheists successfully live life without a Christian anchor (after a series of posts explaining why the moral framework claimed by Christians had existed for thousands of years before Christianity and indeed evolved, another word you have a problem with, denigrating that fact I think they don't realise how much they benefit from living at the apex of a civiliansation that was built on Christianty and until very recently has been running on Christian software. To me these happy atheists are like roadrunner who has just run off the edge of the cliff and hasn't yet realised there is nothing beneath their feet.. The typos in the quote are yours

In another post on why Christian’s can’t claim copyright over the moral framework by which the majority of the world live, you posted This conversation is very difficult because one side of the discussion is very entrenched and doesn't actually know their side of the argument well enough

I’m not sure what makes you think you are the arbiter of what others think, but surely even you can see that assuming you do is either (a) patronising (b) offensive and (c) a bit silly when you are clearly so ill informed and closed minded, and probably a combination of all three. Your post was the argument of someone who overestimates their intelligence, but isn’t bright enough to see it.

In a series of posts about how Christianity doesn’t have the final say in morals, where you insisted they did you wrote I would have thought gently coercing people of superior intelligence to procreate would be entirely in the interest of the species survival and flourishing!!

I could go on, but I won’t. I am genuinely amazed that you lack the self awareness to see how you have come across in however many posts 6 pages from you equal.

Edited

I wonder, if I'm so stupid and such a thick idiot, what nerve I have hit for you to spend this long dissecting my posts! What is really going on here? I've been vastly outnumbered in this discussion by people very hostile to my worldview, why are you spending your precious time trying to kick me while I'm down?

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 20:08

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 19:54

There were too many posters and comments for me to pick up each strand and deal with substantively, and clearly would be a waste of time.

What I would say, is that increasingly younger people in the West are turning to religion with fresh eyes, perhaps somewhat in rebellion against their atheist parents. Many of New Atheisms figureheads and most devoted advocates have hugely softened their stances. It will be interesting to see how this develops

Edited

I suspect the rise in religiosity, that seems to be confined to young men, is more a rebellion against women and feminism than a rebellioun against atheism.

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 20:06

CurlewKate · 19/05/2025 20:01

What do you mean by New atheists “softening their stance”?

Alex O'connor, Richard Dawkins, Ayan Hirsi Ali hasn't just softened but converted.

CurlewKate · 19/05/2025 20:01

What do you mean by New atheists “softening their stance”?

Flyswats · 19/05/2025 19:55

"Treat others as you would wish to be treated", I think is my main one.

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 19:54

Tryingtokeepgoing · 19/05/2025 19:25

You might interpret it that way, but you have managed to interpret many things incorrectly so I am not surprised. It was not my intention though. I can lay it out for you. I can’t make you understand it. The very premise of your original thread was to bait atheists, and you alone managed to make 6 pages of posts on that, so it’s a bit rich to feel that one post over more than 40 pages is baiting you! Despite that, all of those who don’t subscribe to your way of thinking have engaged in good faith and all you could do was studiously ignore the many facts, discussions, debates that didn’t fit your narrow view on the world. You responded to those where you thought you were on safe ground. And often misjudged that.

Here is a sample of some of your more denigratory and / or insulting posts:

In discussion on objective truth, in which you were floundering badly, you posted To put my argument in a nutshell - your morals sound very very Christian to me. Despite your hostility to Christianity, it's moral system is the water you swim in and feels so obviously true. My fear is that atheism seems oblivious to this, and anti-theists are busily sawing away at the branch upon which they stand.

You posted that despite the fact it’s clearly inflammatory to suggest that atheists, somehow, aren’t entitled to have a different view of how morality evolved. Especially as there’s no evidence to support your point of view. We do not, and do not want, to live in Christianity’s moral waters. Firstly, they are too murky for me, and secondly, Christianity has taken an existing moral framework and corrupted it for its own use. Have you ever wondered how the church became so wealthy, and why it hasn’t helped more people at a practical level?

Then of course there’s your reply to a post on how atheists successfully live life without a Christian anchor (after a series of posts explaining why the moral framework claimed by Christians had existed for thousands of years before Christianity and indeed evolved, another word you have a problem with, denigrating that fact I think they don't realise how much they benefit from living at the apex of a civiliansation that was built on Christianty and until very recently has been running on Christian software. To me these happy atheists are like roadrunner who has just run off the edge of the cliff and hasn't yet realised there is nothing beneath their feet.. The typos in the quote are yours

In another post on why Christian’s can’t claim copyright over the moral framework by which the majority of the world live, you posted This conversation is very difficult because one side of the discussion is very entrenched and doesn't actually know their side of the argument well enough

I’m not sure what makes you think you are the arbiter of what others think, but surely even you can see that assuming you do is either (a) patronising (b) offensive and (c) a bit silly when you are clearly so ill informed and closed minded, and probably a combination of all three. Your post was the argument of someone who overestimates their intelligence, but isn’t bright enough to see it.

In a series of posts about how Christianity doesn’t have the final say in morals, where you insisted they did you wrote I would have thought gently coercing people of superior intelligence to procreate would be entirely in the interest of the species survival and flourishing!!

I could go on, but I won’t. I am genuinely amazed that you lack the self awareness to see how you have come across in however many posts 6 pages from you equal.

Edited

There were too many posters and comments for me to pick up each strand and deal with substantively, and clearly would be a waste of time.

What I would say, is that increasingly younger people in the West are turning to religion with fresh eyes, perhaps somewhat in rebellion against their atheist parents. Many of New Atheisms figureheads and most devoted advocates have hugely softened their stances. It will be interesting to see how this develops