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Part 2 - To as if you are not a Christian , what non Christian values you live by

65 replies

Parker231 · 18/05/2025 20:28

Follow on from the earlier thread

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
CurlewKate · 20/05/2025 17:01

CrystalSingerFan · 20/05/2025 13:13

No! I love the other (more or less acceptably NOT NSFW) 50th anniversary video for the Sydney Opera House. I'll check out the graduating class talk.

(Your DS is clearly a credit to you...)

Here you go!

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/yoEezZD71sc?si=0tK59sIOO9sI875y

CrystalSingerFan · 20/05/2025 13:13

CurlewKate · 20/05/2025 12:49

My DS is, among many things (he calls it a portfolio career!) a busker, and he made an absolute fortune last Christmas with White Wine in the Sun!

Have you heard TM’s talk to a graduating class?

Edited

No! I love the other (more or less acceptably NOT NSFW) 50th anniversary video for the Sydney Opera House. I'll check out the graduating class talk.

(Your DS is clearly a credit to you...)

CurlewKate · 20/05/2025 12:49

CrystalSingerFan · 20/05/2025 11:41

One of the many things I love about Mumsnet is that they introduced me to Tim Minchin. Great guy. (I'm an atheist.)

It was a "list your top three Xmas songs" thread. I'd never heard of 'Drinking White Wine in the Sun'. Just super.

My DS is, among many things (he calls it a portfolio career!) a busker, and he made an absolute fortune last Christmas with White Wine in the Sun!

Have you heard TM’s talk to a graduating class?

CrystalSingerFan · 20/05/2025 11:41

CurlewKate · 19/05/2025 03:23

I’m not a humanist- but I like what Tim Minchin said “Having a non-superstitious world view allows you to go about your business making ethical choices based on a general desire to do the most possible good”

One of the many things I love about Mumsnet is that they introduced me to Tim Minchin. Great guy. (I'm an atheist.)

It was a "list your top three Xmas songs" thread. I'd never heard of 'Drinking White Wine in the Sun'. Just super.

OutsideLookingOut · 20/05/2025 10:34

pointythings · 19/05/2025 20:11

I agree with this. Young men aren't going to find obedient little women anywhere else. I think there's probably a subset of Gen Z who are turning to religion because life is tough right now - but I wonder how long their devotion is going to last when nothing changes. And what I see among my DCs' peers is very far from increased interest in Christianity - it would be interesting, for example, to see whether we are also seeing a rise in paganism.

I note that OP from the last thread hasn't bothered to address a single point made by pp around how disrespectful and dismissive she was of atheists. No insight or no excuses?

I think I saw that for Gen Z men and women are diverging with men for the first time going to church more! It adds up to me. Women (young women) seem to be more liberal in general. Many young men feel entirely disenfranchised - it's hard to find a wife slave these days.

countingthedays945 · 20/05/2025 04:03

I don’t have to be a Christian to have strong values. They are probably the same values as you say you have except I don’t believe all the shite in a book from 2000 years ago.

QuaintShaker · 20/05/2025 03:18

I'm going to have to at least try to check out of the thread a little for the next few days, as I've been allowing it to distract me from real-life priorities.

I would, though, stress that I only chimed in on the issue of what is causing the uptick in interest in Christianity (mostly among young men) in response to a suggestion that it was rebellion against their atheist parents, and that every single link I have posted (supporting the notion that misogynistic grievance-politics are the primary driver) are Christian-authored.

I'm not attacking Christianity any more than those many Christian writers are, and I note that each and every one of them are expressing concern with the trend, not embracing it. If you're a Christian, and disagree with the analysis of those writers (because you dont agree the issue exists), fine. If other Christians cannot pursuade you, I doubt that I have much chance.

QuaintShaker · 20/05/2025 02:40

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 22:31

Yes I do reject it, Who are these older British Christians you speak of? There's no way any Christian would not welcome young people joining the church, men or women with open arms. What has Misogyny and a sense of victimisation got to do with joining a church? Victimisation of what and what is the church going to do to stop these men feeling victimised? Are there special male only Christian churches now that I've not heard of?

I feel like you a persistently misrepresenting me.

Who are these older British Christians you speak of?
On the last page, I posted an article by a British Christian writer who was enthused about the uptick in interest, but concerned about the likelihood that misogyny among young men was among the contributing factors. Here are a collection of other recent articles, all from UK-based Christian sources, discussing the issue (and postulating, from their perspective, how to solve it):

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2023/17-march/features/features/awkward-or-absent-the-problem-of-boys

https://www.affinity.org.uk/social-issues/andrew-tate-christian-incels-and-biblical-solutions/

https://www.premierchristianity.com/columnists/every-christian-man-needs-to-play-their-part-in-fighting-misogyny/5632.article

There's no way any Christian would not welcome young people joining the church, men or women with open arms.
And I never said that Churches weren't welcoming such young people, or that they should not. I'm saying that if, as seems likely, the increase in misogyny is one of the driving factors causing young men to become interested in the church in the UK (as in the US), that churches will likely wish to be live to that possibility so they can address it in whatever way they see fit. I would have thought through education, not turning them away.

What has Misogyny and a sense of victimisation got to do with joining a church?
In the context of US Evangelicals (which is the only context in which I can find any studies exploring why there is a surge in interest from young men in particular), those young men show a high incidence of feeling victimized by modern society and a high incidence of misogynistic views (some extremely misogynistic). I.e. we know there is a correlation between young men with those views and those who are joining Evangelical churches.

(Incidentally, the source I posted discussing that correlation, in the US, was also a Christian one)

In the UK, we don't know have studies on the motivations of those (mostly, young men) who are suddenly finding an interest in Christianity, though we do know the UK surge is limited to Presbyterian (Evangelic) churches and the RCC, and not seen in the CoE (I dont know what to make of that).

Victimisation of what and what is the church going to do to stop these men feeling victimised?
They consider that men are victims of modern culture, but not much more detail is directly given. Given the levels of misogyny present in the same cohort, though, I think we can safely assume that they consider that feminism is part of what they feel victimizes them.

I would postulate that these young men likely see the church as an upholder of traditional gender roles.

Are there special male only Christian churches now that I've not heard of?

An organization doesn't have to be male-only in order to be (or perceived by some to be) misogynistic.

Andrew Tate, Christian incels, and Biblical solutions - Social Issues - Affinity

This article was first published in the Social Issues Bulletin – Issue 52: Spring 2023. Have you heard of Andrew Tate? If not yet, best to acquaint yourself, because you are about to. Recent research found that 8 in 10 boys between 16 and 17 years of a...

https://www.affinity.org.uk/social-issues/andrew-tate-christian-incels-and-biblical-solutions/

QuaintShaker · 20/05/2025 01:44

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 22:25

What aspects of Andrew Tate do you think are compatible with doctrines which hold that his behaviour is deeply disordered. Many of the young men are there in reaction against Tate-eqsue liberalism. Against limbic capitalism, against porn, throwaway culture, using people as a means to an end. Andrew Tate is about as far away from Catholicism as it is possible to get!!

On the first thread, you felt like you'd like to see a return to society of a few generations ago.

Lots of young men feel similarly, but likely for different reasons to you. Your concerns seem to be more to do with transgender ideologies and euthanasia but, for a lot of young men, they see women's rights as the problem, and want a reversion to traditional gender roles and a society that is more male-centric.

I dont think its a coincidence that the young men who are suddenly finding their Christian faith, in the US, are those who feel that society victimizes them and are expressly anti-feminist.

You might think that these things are antithetical to your understanding of Catholicism or Christianity (though I do note that the Bible, New Testament included, does contain passages that seem to assert men's position over women).

I cannot find studies specific to Catholicism, in terms of the beliefs and motivations of the young men whose interest in the Church is surging. At the moment, all we can say with confidence is:

  1. Young men in particular are becoming more engaged in Catholicism and Evangelical churches (other Churches are continuing to see a decline);
  1. In US-based Evangelical churches, the young men who are joining show a high instance of misogynistic beliefs, and a belief that society is against them.

Were I a member of a non-Evangelical Church that was seeing a sudden surge of interest from young men specifically, I would be concerned that the basis may be similar to the basis for the increase in Evangelical churches.

Again, data is limited, but the data we do have coupled with the demographics of the new-converts would, to me, suggest that misogyny is a very relevant factor, and far more likely than your speculation that it's a rebellion against Atheist parents.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 19/05/2025 23:43

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 22:31

Yes I do reject it, Who are these older British Christians you speak of? There's no way any Christian would not welcome young people joining the church, men or women with open arms. What has Misogyny and a sense of victimisation got to do with joining a church? Victimisation of what and what is the church going to do to stop these men feeling victimised? Are there special male only Christian churches now that I've not heard of?

This post feels to me like the online equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la".

If you really want to know what misogyny and a sense of victimhood might have to do with joining a church, then read the research. There is plenty out there.

But you don't actually want to know, do you?

TeenLifeMum · 19/05/2025 23:13

I support my gay daughter and her girlfriend. Our church didn’t and responded with asking her youth group to pray for her to be healed. We left the church.

I have faith there is a god but I don’t think he’s an arsehole. I’m kind, empathetic but not forgiving - forgiving the guy who attacked and raped me is not something I need to do.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 19/05/2025 23:07

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 21:41

I'm going to ignore your rudeness and goading. You might feel my disagreements with you have been dismissive but you can't even be civil.

Highlighting your posting style isn’t rude, dismissive, uncivil or goading. I haven’t called you out on this publicly until now, but your record of using the laugh emoji reaction on some of my posts tells me all I need to know about why you post the way you do. I’m confident enough in my beliefs to post and debate them; perhaps you could do all posters the same courtesy :)

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 22:33

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 22:19

Presumably, you would not want to see a rise of Tate-esque views in your church.

If, as appears likely, the rise of Tate-esque misogyny among young men is associated with the high rates of young men looking toward Christianity, I would expect that most churches would want to change the mindset of those young men, rather than allow their mindset to (over time) change the church.

E.g., churches should try to best understand what is causing the uptick (and look to address it in a way they see positive), rather than uncritictly embracing it.

I would like to remind you that Andrew Tate is a Muslim

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 22:31

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 22:07

Misogyny and a sense of victimization are very clearly among the drivers for the growth in participation among young men (and it is only among young men) in the US. Feel very free to review the survey data.

In the UK, there is cross-demographic growth, but it is clearly and obviously at its highest among young men.

You seem to be rejecting even the possibility that the factors driving the increase in the US could possibly be factors in the UK, too, despite the demographic similarities.

I fully suspect there is a connection, as do some British Christians (who have either expressed the need for concern or the need to model a more positive form of masculinity).

Yes I do reject it, Who are these older British Christians you speak of? There's no way any Christian would not welcome young people joining the church, men or women with open arms. What has Misogyny and a sense of victimisation got to do with joining a church? Victimisation of what and what is the church going to do to stop these men feeling victimised? Are there special male only Christian churches now that I've not heard of?

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 22:25

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 22:19

Presumably, you would not want to see a rise of Tate-esque views in your church.

If, as appears likely, the rise of Tate-esque misogyny among young men is associated with the high rates of young men looking toward Christianity, I would expect that most churches would want to change the mindset of those young men, rather than allow their mindset to (over time) change the church.

E.g., churches should try to best understand what is causing the uptick (and look to address it in a way they see positive), rather than uncritictly embracing it.

What aspects of Andrew Tate do you think are compatible with doctrines which hold that his behaviour is deeply disordered. Many of the young men are there in reaction against Tate-eqsue liberalism. Against limbic capitalism, against porn, throwaway culture, using people as a means to an end. Andrew Tate is about as far away from Catholicism as it is possible to get!!

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 22:19

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 21:53

What do you mean by "on guard"?

Presumably, you would not want to see a rise of Tate-esque views in your church.

If, as appears likely, the rise of Tate-esque misogyny among young men is associated with the high rates of young men looking toward Christianity, I would expect that most churches would want to change the mindset of those young men, rather than allow their mindset to (over time) change the church.

E.g., churches should try to best understand what is causing the uptick (and look to address it in a way they see positive), rather than uncritictly embracing it.

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 22:07

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 21:41

So young men join the church and that's concerning but the increase in young women joining is not? There is no logic here. They are making up the reasons. misogyny and a sense of victimisation I've heard it all now

Misogyny and a sense of victimization are very clearly among the drivers for the growth in participation among young men (and it is only among young men) in the US. Feel very free to review the survey data.

In the UK, there is cross-demographic growth, but it is clearly and obviously at its highest among young men.

You seem to be rejecting even the possibility that the factors driving the increase in the US could possibly be factors in the UK, too, despite the demographic similarities.

I fully suspect there is a connection, as do some British Christians (who have either expressed the need for concern or the need to model a more positive form of masculinity).

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 21:53

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 21:38

I think you are being overly defensive. This thread is about Christianity, and I was addressing the OP's comment about what she believes to be driving the current, aparent revival in Christian belief. I'm not here to beat up on Christianity, and I don't need to critique (for the purpose of this discussion) other faiths and the extent to which they are or are not misogynistic.

No doubt, the increased religiosity among young people is multi-factoral, but the societal trend towards right wing politics and misogyny, particularly among younger people, is a cross border one. In the age of social media, it is highly likely to have significant commonality in its root causes.

In the US, where studies have explored not just the extent of the increase but the reasons for it, increased prevelance of misogyny is clearly identified as a factor.

The UK has, during the same period, seen increased religiosity in general but with the shift being far more pronounced among young men. The reasons driving this are yet to be studied, but clearly at least some, older British Christians think the factors causing growth in the US likely explain at least some of the growth in the UK, and are concerned by that. I do think its a trend that warrants greater analysis and one that should be a cause for concern (or at least, being "on guard").

I'm not trying to post a "gotcha", nor use the apparent trend as a stick to beat Christianity with, nor am I tarring all Christians. I dont think that's a fair reading of my posts at all.

What do you mean by "on guard"?

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 21:41

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 21:23

Yes, that's the study I describe in my most recent post (and is the one referenced in the Guardian article).

It does show increased participation among young women but a markedly larger growth among young men. The study doesn't explore the reasons for the growth and says that more research is needed. There is, though, concern that the large shift among young men is likely at least part explainable by the same factors that explain the similar shift in the US: increased misogyny and a sense of victimization.

So young men join the church and that's concerning but the increase in young women joining is not? There is no logic here. They are making up the reasons. misogyny and a sense of victimisation I've heard it all now

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 21:41

Tryingtokeepgoing · 19/05/2025 20:44

Here we go again…. I’ll humour you with a reply, despite the fact you don’t have the courtesy to do the same to other posters, but if your posting style carries on as before I won’t continue to engage, because it’s offensive (for which you haven’t apologised) and juvenile.

Of course morals are relative. They have evolved, as mankind has evolved, over hundreds of thousand of years to nurture, develop and shape society and civilisations. Many organisations over the years have tried to codify them and coral followers, but their popularity rises and falls. However human nature, our inquisitiveness, innate desire to be social, develop mutually beneficial relationships and create a framework within which to live transcends any made-up deities, as civilisations over tens of thousands of years have shown. They’ve all believed certain deities along the way…none have been real, and none have outlived the moral imperatives that are innate in mankind.

I'm going to ignore your rudeness and goading. You might feel my disagreements with you have been dismissive but you can't even be civil.

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 21:38

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 21:21

As you can see from the study in this country young women and men have increased. I think you are confusing American politics. I don't know about you but I live in England, we don't have many evangelical churches here. Most churches are not anti women at all. I am very happy for my child to follow her beliefs (catholic) , my aunt is a Baptist Church goer and they are lovely welcoming and family orientated. You are tarring the faith of millions on one sect of the church. I've not met any Christians here who think their church is anti women. Do you say this about other faiths that want women to cover up? I think your barking up the wrong tree here.

I think you are being overly defensive. This thread is about Christianity, and I was addressing the OP's comment about what she believes to be driving the current, aparent revival in Christian belief. I'm not here to beat up on Christianity, and I don't need to critique (for the purpose of this discussion) other faiths and the extent to which they are or are not misogynistic.

No doubt, the increased religiosity among young people is multi-factoral, but the societal trend towards right wing politics and misogyny, particularly among younger people, is a cross border one. In the age of social media, it is highly likely to have significant commonality in its root causes.

In the US, where studies have explored not just the extent of the increase but the reasons for it, increased prevelance of misogyny is clearly identified as a factor.

The UK has, during the same period, seen increased religiosity in general but with the shift being far more pronounced among young men. The reasons driving this are yet to be studied, but clearly at least some, older British Christians think the factors causing growth in the US likely explain at least some of the growth in the UK, and are concerned by that. I do think its a trend that warrants greater analysis and one that should be a cause for concern (or at least, being "on guard").

I'm not trying to post a "gotcha", nor use the apparent trend as a stick to beat Christianity with, nor am I tarring all Christians. I dont think that's a fair reading of my posts at all.

BlossomBlanket · 19/05/2025 21:26

Yes they are, but Alex has migrated from quite a strident position against religion to a far more open and nuanced position. He's very popular among Christians, certainly I admire him a lot and enjoy his content.

"Richard Dawkins, a well-known atheist and author of "The God Delusion," has recently declared himself a "cultural Christian." He clarified that he does not believe in the Christian faith but feels at home in the Christian ethos and values living in a culturally Christian country.

Dawkins expressed his preference for Christianity over Islam, stating that he finds Christianity to be a fundamentally decent religion compared to Islam, which he views as hostile to women and gays. He has also criticized the promotion of Ramadan over Easter in London, indicating his discomfort with the increasing presence of Islamic culture in traditionally Christian spaces." (AI response when I googled Richard Dawkins cultural Christian)

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 21:23

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 21:11

Here's a link to an English study Catherine Pepinster
April 8, 2025
12:01 am
News
By Catherine Pepinster
Generation Z is leading a turnaround in the popularity of Christianity and a rise in church attendance in England and Wales, according to research published today.
A survey by the Bible Society and YouGov finds those aged 18-34, which includes Gen Z and Millennials, are newly drawn to Christian beliefs, with renewed interest not only in being part of a church but also in prayer, reading the Bible and social activism based on faith.
After years of declining congregations, the most dramatic increase in churchgoing, according to the research, is among young men. The image of churches being filled by elderly women and few others is no longer true, the society says.
Dr Rhiannon McAleer, the report’s co-author and Bible Society’s director of research, said: “We are seeing something we have never seen before.
“The results are pointing to community being the key. We are looking at young adults coming along with friends. They are not totally unchurched; sometimes grandparents have had an impact on their faith.”
The survey, The Quiet Revival, was conducted by YouGov among 13,146 people in England and Wales, and is an update on the Bible Society’s previous research conducted in 2018. It shows that in 2024, 5.8 million people were attending church at least once a month — 12 per cent of the population — compared with 3.7 million, or 8 per cent in 2018.
The most significant upturn was among the 18-24s (Gen Z) with 16 per cent of them attending church at least once a month; six years earlier, only 4 per cent did so.

Young men showed a marked increase in churchgoing, with 21 per cent in 2024, up from 4 per cent in 2018; young women’s attendance rose up to 12 per cent in 2024, from 3 per cent in 2018.
This revival is most evident in Catholicism and Pentecostalism, although the survey reveals a noticeable decline in popularity for the Church of England. Of those in the older Millennials category, 35 per cent say they are Catholic, 11 per cent are Pentecostal and 25 per cent identify as Anglican.

Yes, that's the study I describe in my most recent post (and is the one referenced in the Guardian article).

It does show increased participation among young women but a markedly larger growth among young men. The study doesn't explore the reasons for the growth and says that more research is needed. There is, though, concern that the large shift among young men is likely at least part explainable by the same factors that explain the similar shift in the US: increased misogyny and a sense of victimization.

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 21:21

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 21:06

Just saw your edit, after I'd posted my reply.

Per the other links I've posted, the young men who are finding Christianity have a high incidence of a sense of victimhood and distinctly anti-feminist beliefs (including belief that women should lose the right to vote). At the same time, young women are turning their back on Christianity at a rate not previously seen.

You don't have to look far to see some Christians, particularly Christian women, expressing concern over this trend. The OP, who seems to have seen the top line numbers about growing participation in Christianity among Gen Z, seemed to believe it a rebellion against atheism (and, presumably, any good thing). I think that, whether you're Christian or not (but provided that you are anti-misogyny), the demographics of this increase should actually be a cause for concern.

As you can see from the study in this country young women and men have increased. I think you are confusing American politics. I don't know about you but I live in England, we don't have many evangelical churches here. Most churches are not anti women at all. I am very happy for my child to follow her beliefs (catholic) , my aunt is a Baptist Church goer and they are lovely welcoming and family orientated. You are tarring the faith of millions on one sect of the church. I've not met any Christians here who think their church is anti women. Do you say this about other faiths that want women to cover up? I think your barking up the wrong tree here.

QuaintShaker · 19/05/2025 21:19

Whippetlovely · 19/05/2025 21:05

By the way your polls are from Americans. We live in England. We don't have many evangelical churches here.

No, I don't live in England (nor elsewhere in the UK).

I'm using US studies because there are more of them, and they dig a little deeper. The (relatively limited) UK studies available show increased participation among Gen Z generally but with a much larger growth among young men in particular (occurring at the same time as the growth in the US). Given the general cross-border rise in right wing politics and misogyny among young men, I'd be staggered if there isn't significant overlap in the reasons underlying the US trends and the UK ones.

This seems to be the concern among some British Christians:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/21/gen-z-men-church-community-activism-online-radicalisation