Page 3 | Woman declared legally dead is being kept alive due to state’s abortion laws

Youstolemygoddamnhouse · 2025-05-17T17:02:03+00:00

Anyone see this story? [[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/may/15/pregnant-georgia-woman-brain-dead-abortion-law https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/may/15/pregnant-georgia-woman-brain-dead-abortion-law]] TLTR US women is being kept alive on life support due to abortion laws. Woman was 9 weeks pregnant when she became brain dead. Family have no say in the matter and do not want this. The foetus if it survives may have life long health conditions and suffer from brain damage. Family are also having to pay for medical fees occurred and also for future birth fees. I am being unreasonable to say WTF. Where is the outcry about this? This actually happened in an episode of The Handmaid’s tale. YABU - this is the law, law needs to be upheld even after death YANBU - WTF. Women are not safe even after death.

Jc2001 · 18/05/2025 00:11

This is so depressing it's unbearable. The United States is imploding. It's the sort of thing you'd expect to see in some backwards third world country.

Someone2025 · 18/05/2025 00:02

Youstolemygoddamnhouse · 17/05/2025 22:41

I think the whole topic is very complicated. I absolutely agree that pregnant women need a discussion around what they would want if something like this happened to them, so they could choose and go through their options, as not every pregnant woman will have a partner that is supportive or family to help raise the child and in terms of the child had a lifelong condition, would the child have quality of life?

I also think we need to see long term research on the children that this has happened too. My nana who is 78 was telling me something like this happened when she was 15, woman was ran over who was pregnant (not sure what stage) but she was in critical care or dying and they delivered the child. Not exactly the same but similar.

100% agree with what you’re saying about oxygen deprivation. For me I believe in quality of life over quantity. My cousin jumped off a bridge when he was in his early 20s and declared brain dead. He’s still alive now over 25 years but in a vegetative state. He has a team of carers 24/7. I honestly don’t even know how much this has cost but he’s just lay in his bed for 25 years no quality of life whatsoever. If that happened to me I would rather they just pull the machines off.

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Agree
25 years is crazy, do you mind me asking who is paying for this enormous cost of care

Strawberriesforever · 17/05/2025 23:58

ThejoyofNC · 17/05/2025 19:53

I've made a point of not getting deep into abortion debates on Mumsnet as people come here for advice on their own lives and it's not my place to upset them. I stated my view which already tells you the answer to your questions.

But when a pregnant mother receives life saving care and a side effect of that treatment is the loss of her pregnancy, that isn't considered an abortion.

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What about if that life saving care is a termination of a pregnancy?
How do you decide what constitutes life saving care? It sounds simple, but it really isn’t in many situations.

Babyboomtastic · 17/05/2025 23:43

Youstolemygoddamnhouse · 17/05/2025 22:41

I think the whole topic is very complicated. I absolutely agree that pregnant women need a discussion around what they would want if something like this happened to them, so they could choose and go through their options, as not every pregnant woman will have a partner that is supportive or family to help raise the child and in terms of the child had a lifelong condition, would the child have quality of life?

I also think we need to see long term research on the children that this has happened too. My nana who is 78 was telling me something like this happened when she was 15, woman was ran over who was pregnant (not sure what stage) but she was in critical care or dying and they delivered the child. Not exactly the same but similar.

100% agree with what you’re saying about oxygen deprivation. For me I believe in quality of life over quantity. My cousin jumped off a bridge when he was in his early 20s and declared brain dead. He’s still alive now over 25 years but in a vegetative state. He has a team of carers 24/7. I honestly don’t even know how much this has cost but he’s just lay in his bed for 25 years no quality of life whatsoever. If that happened to me I would rather they just pull the machines off.

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It's v complicated. I've got a long-standing interest in medical ethics, hence why I've got such an interest in this case.

Babies born to a dead mum isn't that unusual tbh, but it's the duration that's she's being kept on life support that is. For example paramedics can perform a perimortem cesarean section on a woman who is in cardiac arrest or already dead, to try to save the baby (and where mum is still alive, her too obviously). Last year there was that tragic case where a heavily pregnant woman fell from a tower block. She was declared dead at the scene and her baby born shortly after. Despite the fall and circumstances of her birth the baby survived.

I agree about quality of life being the important thing and I'm really sorry to hear about your cousin :-(

From the other side of this, but kind of linked, what do you think of pregnancies of babies with conditions like anencephaly, where the babies will die at birth, being continued so their organs can be donated? One one hand, that baby will save the life of several others. But they are being kept alive so their body parts can be harvested, which sounds horrific. What an awful decision to have to make.

Lovelysummerdays · 17/05/2025 23:37

Kreepture · 17/05/2025 22:56

if it isn't i will stand corrected.. but the story doing the round on USA social media are that

she has a DNR
Her partner and family don't support this
Some form of life saving care when she WAS alive was refused in case she had a miscarriage when she attended the day before., and then was later declared brain dead.

Edited

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Possibly the ct scan it’s essentially a series of c rays and the radiation could harm the fetus thst said she could of worn an iron apron to protect the fetus if necessary.

Earlier diagnosis could of saved her life. I’m not sure if they’d routinely do a ct scan for a headache though there. I was in A&E with an awful headache once and I had no tests / ct scan. Then I developed stroke like symtoms so had to go back to be admitted and then I got a ct scan.

I think ideally everyone should have proper diagnostics but I don’t know if they didn’t go a ct scan as she was pregnant or if they didn’t think one was medically necessary.

SeaToSki · 17/05/2025 23:24

I think the key in this case is that Georgia law confers personhood on a fetus as soon as a heart beat is detected. So if you extrapolate that, a hospital turning off the mother’s life support might be considered to be murdering a person (the fetus) I imagine the hospital are concerned about the implications and are trying to work out what the best course of action is while protecting their staff from prosecution and respecting the dignity of the mother and fetus. I am guessing this scenario has not arisen in Georgia since this law came into effect, and might generate some clarification for this circumstance in the future.

Just for info Georgia law does allow termination of a fetus if the fetus has a condition that means it is medically futile to continue the pregnancy. It also allows for treatment of ectopic pregnancy and those that physically endanger the life of the mother and it instances of rape and incest that have been reported to the police where the fetus is pre 20 wks.

its just a horrific scenario from so many different angles

RhannionKPSS · 17/05/2025 23:11

This is a tragic story, that poor family.

I think the fetus is most certainly not viable and the pregnancy will cease very soon, then the poor woman will be allowed to die with dignity.
Pregnancy is a precarious state in the best of circumstances and situations, and this type of situation makes me more sure of my pro choice stance, and because of personal experience.
Sepsis nearly killed me when my twin boy & girl both died in my womb , but I didn’t miscarry and had to have a D & C which saved my life.

I hope this woman passes in peace and dignity

Original poster

Youstolemygoddamnhouse · 17/05/2025 23:05

AndorTheRelentless · 17/05/2025 22:23

What about women who have been brutally raped or gotten pregnant due to incest. What are your thoughts on those women who choose to have abortions?

So is it ok for women who didn't have sex for fun to be denied abortions? If it's ok to have abortions for the reasons above, then are you standing up for the foetus or punishing the woman?
(I know you were asking the pp about their views)

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I know you’re asking this to the PP, but I will reply. I believe every woman or girl should be able to have the choice to have an abortion full stop. Whatever their reason it doesn’t matter to me. It is their choice. I think if you say women or girls can only get an abortion if they’ve been raped we start getting into a much darker conversation. It becomes less about choice and more about control and punishment. It’s very responsible to choose to have an abortion if you feel you wouldn’t be able to raise the child for whatever reason. All abortion laws do is punish the woman for having sex. Abortion doesn’t punish men the same way.

OP posts:

Kreepture · 17/05/2025 22:56

Lovelysummerdays · 17/05/2025 19:30

I don’t think that’s correct, she had headaches went to hospital they sent her away with medicine, didn’t do any tests/ scans.

Woke up her partner gasping for breath, he called 911. Ambulance to hospital, there they fix a ct scan and found blood clots, her mom is next of kin gave permission for surgery that wasn’t successful.

I think it’s common for A&E here too. I’ve been admitted to hospital a few days after attending A&E and being told nothing serious.

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if it isn't i will stand corrected.. but the story doing the round on USA social media are that

she has a DNR
Her partner and family don't support this
Some form of life saving care when she WAS alive was refused in case she had a miscarriage when she attended the day before., and then was later declared brain dead.

Lovelysummerdays · 17/05/2025 22:50

Thelnebriati · 17/05/2025 22:13

Would they be allowed to treat a convicted criminal the same way? Deny them medical care, then keep them alive to harvest their organs?

Organ harvesting from Chinese people sentenced to death row. The organs are sent to other countries too. Some inmates were reportedly killed by removing their hearts for donation.

I think I read somewhere your family gets an easier time of it if you agree to donate your organs.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/4/6/holdchinesemedicskilleddeath-rowinmates-by-taking-hearts-report

Chinese medics killed death row inmates by taking hearts: Report

Academic study finds doctors might have removed vital organs before the executed had been officially confirmed dead.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/4/6/holdchinesemedicskilleddeath-rowinmates-by-taking-hearts-report

MammaTo · 17/05/2025 22:44

Lamelie · 17/05/2025 18:30

Actually I’m not sure I’ve ever told anyone in real life that abortion saddens me and I only mentioned it here in the context of finding this utterly horrific. I’m certainly not marching or petitioning.

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I think you should start telling people and let them make their own mind up about you. If you’re going to hold these beliefs then say it with your chest.

Original poster

Youstolemygoddamnhouse · 17/05/2025 22:41

Babyboomtastic · 17/05/2025 21:44

16 weeks, kept alive until 32ish weeks I think.
I don't know what the long term effects were obviously, but no complications at all at birth, follow up at a year showed no issues and baby developing as normal.

One of the potential issues in these cases, is that if brain death was caused by oxygen deprivation for mum, the baby may also have been deprived until resuscitated/put on life support etc, and baby may have the same sort of brain damage.

The risks are going to be different in every case, but it's certainly not unusual for the baby to the survive. Equally, not unusual for the baby to be too poorly as mum unstable or baby injured with mum.

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I think the whole topic is very complicated. I absolutely agree that pregnant women need a discussion around what they would want if something like this happened to them, so they could choose and go through their options, as not every pregnant woman will have a partner that is supportive or family to help raise the child and in terms of the child had a lifelong condition, would the child have quality of life?

I also think we need to see long term research on the children that this has happened too. My nana who is 78 was telling me something like this happened when she was 15, woman was ran over who was pregnant (not sure what stage) but she was in critical care or dying and they delivered the child. Not exactly the same but similar.

100% agree with what you’re saying about oxygen deprivation. For me I believe in quality of life over quantity. My cousin jumped off a bridge when he was in his early 20s and declared brain dead. He’s still alive now over 25 years but in a vegetative state. He has a team of carers 24/7. I honestly don’t even know how much this has cost but he’s just lay in his bed for 25 years no quality of life whatsoever. If that happened to me I would rather they just pull the machines off.

OP posts:

TiswasPhantomFlanFlinger · 17/05/2025 22:40

JustMyView13 · 17/05/2025 19:20

And this is a looking glass into our future if we continue to vote for Reform. Anyone who is a woman, or cares about a woman, should wake up and smell the coffee. Nige thinks the sun shines out of Donny T’s arse. The UK would be following suit under a Reform government.

^^ This
If you’re thinking of voting for Reform, then think again.

GarlicPile · 17/05/2025 22:37

diabeticdd · 17/05/2025 18:43

Can someone medical explain why the baby could have brain/other health issues due to this ? As at 9 weeks a foetus is relatively well protected . Also I’m assuming they can do scans so surely there’s an opportunity soon to ascertain the viability of the foetus ?

The foetus is being incubated in a dead body. While a hospital can keep blood and air circulating in that body, the brain's inactive so is not performing any autonomic functions. The team will have to add hormones, etc, as they deem appropriate but it's a mistake to assume a corpse will continue to interact normally with a developing foetus.

Also, bodies kept on artificial life support do start to break down within a couple of months. I read a long explanation of this around the time Ireland was maintaining corpse mothers, but it was grisly so I didn't bother remembering it.

ETA: I'm not someone medical, but you can look this up.

DdraigGoch · 17/05/2025 22:34

Mylegishangingoff · 17/05/2025 22:31

Does archaic not also mean old fashioned rather than just plain old 🤷🏻‍♀️

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It does, but I felt that it was a point worth making that it's not just an old law that no one has got around to repealing.

JHound · 17/05/2025 22:32

Someone2025 · 17/05/2025 20:21

If the government (law) insists on keeping her alive in order for the baby to survive and it’s against the families wishes then the government should be paying the hospital fees and any care for the child thereafter if he / she is disabled etc

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This. It’s baffling to me that the family would ever be landed a bill for this.

Mylegishangingoff · 17/05/2025 22:31

DdraigGoch · 17/05/2025 22:23

This isn't even some old law though. This law was enacted in 2019 and only took effect three years ago.

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Does archaic not also mean old fashioned rather than just plain old 🤷🏻‍♀️

JHound · 17/05/2025 22:31

YellowOrangePink · 17/05/2025 20:09

The left could have codified them so they couldn't be tampered with. But they chose not to.

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”It’s your fault I hit you!”

JHound · 17/05/2025 22:29

Kreepture · 17/05/2025 19:23

almost worse is the only reason she IS brain dead is because of that pregnancy

She had horrific headaches and because of the heartbeat laws they wouldn't do lifesaving medical care, and a blood clot left her brain dead.

They killed her, then have left her dead body being kept artificially alive to incubate a baby.

It's beyond grotesque.

Edited

Holy Jesus Fuck that makes it so much worse.

Maybethisallthereis · 17/05/2025 22:29

Wow what a weird situation. It’s not termination if the mother dies ffs… they don’t know the risk this has had to the baby and what lifelong issues it may have as well as having no mother. So cruel.

AndorTheRelentless · 17/05/2025 22:28

ThejoyofNC · 17/05/2025 20:26

Treating an ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion.

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Try telling that to some hospitals in the USA

JHound · 17/05/2025 22:26

Manxexile · 17/05/2025 20:47

Speaking as Devil's Advocate I wonder if the reaction would be different if the Guardian's headline said "Doctors battle to save life of unborn child by keeping mum alive".

The Devil does not need advocates but no, there is no heading that would make the story ok for me.

JHound · 17/05/2025 22:24

Youcunnyfunt · 17/05/2025 21:53

(in response to ThejoyofNC - this was supposed to have a quote!)
Your post was directly under this post:

The laws are less "medical abortions are no longer acceptable" and more "any medical intervention that could knowingly lead to the death of a fetus is illegal". They were deliberately written to be both broad and blunt.

If a medical intervention can or will cause loss of pregnancy, that is an abortion.

Thankfully, it does look like the law has been updated in USA to reflect ectopic pregnancies specifically as an exception. There are a few cases in red states (like Texas) where doctors have been afraid to undertake treatment in case they are fined (more likely that they disagree the legal exception).

I guess where it gets fuzzy now are other conditions that require treatment that might cause loss of pregnancy (i.e. an abortion) but to save the mother’s life. That is not protected explicitly in law. So, you are not 100% against abortion, by definition - as your responses have proven, you have your own personal exceptions.

Abortion doesn’t make pro-choicers happy, by the way. It just means that sometimes, there are some events where an abortion might be less traumatic than the alternative.

Edited

But this is not a medical intervention that will cause loss of life. It’s literally the opposite.

AndorTheRelentless · 17/05/2025 22:23

Youstolemygoddamnhouse · 17/05/2025 19:13

Yes, it’s the machines that are keeping her alive and are the only reason she is alive right now.

Side note, with you saying you’re 100% anti abortion. What about women who have been brutally raped or gotten pregnant due to incest. What are your thoughts on those women who choose to have abortions?

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What about women who have been brutally raped or gotten pregnant due to incest. What are your thoughts on those women who choose to have abortions?

So is it ok for women who didn't have sex for fun to be denied abortions? If it's ok to have abortions for the reasons above, then are you standing up for the foetus or punishing the woman?
(I know you were asking the pp about their views)

DdraigGoch · 17/05/2025 22:23

Mylegishangingoff · 17/05/2025 18:04

This happened in Ireland prior to the 8th being repealed. This is what happens unfortunately when abortion laws are archaic.

This isn't even some old law though. This law was enacted in 2019 and only took effect three years ago.